Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject: Seat Belt Modification for 55 Willys Jeep
Hi Everybody. I am a rookie here:) My grandfather rebuilt and cherished a 55 Willys Jeep (soft top) for the past 30+ years. He has decide it is time to give it to me. with his permission, I am looking to make a couple of safety changes. First and foremost, I want to install 3 point seat belts (he cut out the old lap belts.)
Does anyone have any idea if I should do this by installing a roll bar or if they can be attached to the seat. Any idea what something like that might cost? thanks in advance for the help.
The problem is a shoulder harness anchored to the floor can cause serious compression damage to the spine in some accident cases. It is better to anchor only the lap belt to the floor. Therefore it stands to reason that a roll bar or as they are called today a show bar is needed to anchor the shoulder harness. Do to the violant and often sideways rollover tendencies of the jeep the diagonal shoulder harness is more dangerous then safe. The "H" style shoulder harness anchored to the roll bar is a much better choice. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
In your case the roll bar is too high and too far back. In side impacts that diagonal shoulder strap can be a real killer. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Feb 20, 2007 Posts: 606 Location: Illinois
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: Jeep type?
Is your '55 a military Jeep? If so, do you really want to install a roll bar? The value and historical significance of older Jeeps often rely on their originality. A '55 M38A1 would not have had a roll bar. Granted, in any kind of highway accident an older Jeep would not be the safest vehicle to be riding in, but that does not prevent most enthusiasits from owning, maintaining and driving them in their original configuration. I would question the value of a simple shoulder harness in an open vehicle anyway. Race vehicles have 5 point restraint systems incorporated in a specifically designed roll cage to encase and protect the driver. Modern cars have crush zones, belts and bags to absorb impact from many directions. If your desire is to have the maximum safety for an on-road/off-road vehicle, your best bet may be a new or at least modern Jeep. If you do decide to modify your Jeep, make sure to install a roll bar system that is attached directly to the frame not just bolted on the body sheet metal. And I would make sure the hardware is designed to protect people and not just be a decorative accessory. Front and rear roll bars would be the best bet along with at least a 4-point harness. One outlet for seat belts that I have come across is http://wescoperformance.stores.yahoo.net/index.html
There may be others as well. Good luck with your new Jeep! _________________ 1951 M38
Honestly, I am not particularly concerned about the monetary value of the jeep as much as the legacy and function. I learned to surf fish Montauk in the jeep. My grandfather had a front ball hitch installed. The other option i can think of would be to not drive it on the open road, but instead to tow it like he did to Montauk and then take it on the beach and roads that are not congested.
A lot of people out here drive very aggressively ..... I have even thought of retrofitting a power braking system.
First off you must decide how you are going to use the jeep. You should base that choice on how the jeep is equipped. If it's stock then figure her for 45 to 55 MPH tops. Above 50 MPH the average condition 8" x 1 3/4" brakes are not adequate for highway driving. So as you can see freeway driving is really not a good idea. If you keep her on the two lane highways and roads then all would be just fine. The two important upgrade for the brakes are the dual master cylinder so you can seperate the front and rear brake systems and 11" drum brakes. Power is not needed. With these brake upgrades you still won't fit in on the freeway running 45 to 55. If you upgarde with an overdrive so you can go 60/65 then we have the old Ross steering and drag link setup that makes her very unstable at those speeds on hard surface. The best upgrade here is any modern steering system that deletes the drag link.
Now a roll cage is a must for rock climbing, racing and 65 MPH rollovers. However a parade jeep or light 45 to 55 MPH driver will do just fine with a quality built show bar bolted down to the rear wheel houses. I know this works well in light rollovers and don't ask me how I know. The "H" style shoulder harnes will keep the majority of your body parts in the seat in a rollover so you don't end up with crushed body parts caught between the side of the jeep and the ground. Four 3/8" bolt holes in the top of each wheel house is not going to have a measurable impact on the resale value of your jeep. If you wish to anchor a show bar to the frame just use steel plate under the wheel house out of site to the frame. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
You guys have been a huge help. i am going to ask my grandfather which model jeep it is later today.
I have two primary uses for the jeep, neither of which involve highway driving. Some of the beaches I would like to take it on are, however, an hour away (at 65 mph+). It might be best that I tow it to the beach........ thanks. I am going to try to take a picture of it later, too.
Re the M201 ROPs.
All I can say is that's how the french put ROPS onto about 27,000 jeeps, where ROPS was added in Europe they seemed to follow the same pattern. That is the M201 standard as released from the army spec and nobody has ever complained as far as I know.
Certainly I remember being in Europe with REFORGER and seing french and Dutch (I think) and Swiss ? M38A1a with ROPS that followed that pattern but not American A1s
In fact don't remember seeing ROPs on any US stuff, was it fitted?
I tend not to critique French engineering, they generally know what they are doing. The placement of any retro fit ROPS is a compomise, gun mounts have to be fitted, radios, dynamos, and the top still has to go up on the original hoops, and the ROPS has to fit round all that stuff.
Re the M201 ROPs.
All I can say is that's how the french put ROPS onto about 27,000 jeeps, where ROPS was added in Europe they seemed to follow the same pattern. That is the M201 standard as released from the army spec and nobody has ever complained as far as I know.
Hello Dave,
I can't see any mention of ROPS before your entry above. So I cannot understand your defense of a system that wasn't challenged in this thread?
Is the show type roll bar attached to the very weak tub edges in your photo the French engineered safety rollover protection system you are referring to? If so then I would certainly consider it inadequate. A true rough service rollover protection system will be a full cage fastened to the frame.
I'm not defending it Wes, I'm just stating thats what they fitted and generally it seems to have done the job.
I wasn't really talking about the ROPs system, just showing that's what they used to anchor the seat belt shoulder strap.
Other systems I've seen over here in Europe seemed to follow the same ideas.
I agree totally it is best mounted on the chassis, but that's not what they did. In fact I can't think of any MB, M38, M38A1, (not sure about 151 can't remember seeing any) that was fitted with the ROPs through to the chassis by any European user. Having said that I'm not saying they didn't. And on the few that did have seat belts and the associated problem of fitting the should strap, the bar was fitted to the tub, and usually well back from the seats.
A yard at Elst near Arnhem, down the road from Eric Maji's place had some NEKAFs or M38A1s in back in 2002 they had an almost identical roll bar to the M201, fitted the same way with the shoulder strap, with the roll bar set right back in the tub.
I'm not defending it or saying it's right, I'm just saying how others got round the problem of fitting the shoulder strap.
Glad you nailed down the model. Now you're off to the Early CJ5 pages I bet.
http://www.earlycj5.com/ _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Jan 09, 2009 Posts: 34 Location: Newnan, Georgia
Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:07 am Post subject:
I would add a rollbar just for the rollover factor in the event someone else hits you and flips the jeep over on top of you. Without a rollbar now you have all 2400lbs resting on you and your passengers. Not good. Seat belts will keep you in the vehicle. While nothing is 100% safe other than not driving it. For my willys I will always have a rollbar and seat belts even when restored.
Just my $.02 _________________ '53 CJ3B Hurricane, 5.38s, lockrights, koenig PTO winch. M606 conversion in progress.
In the land of the blind.... the one eyed man is king
The lap belt will only keep your lower torso and legs inside the jeep. Without doors or should belts the upper torso is easily ejected partially out the side of the jeep during side rollovers. The diagonal single shoulder belt does very little good at all. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
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