Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:12 pm Post subject: Original Strata Blue Paint
Just a question here, I have heard that all M38's came from the factory in olive drab and then were repainted after delivery.
I have a Jeep body that has blue under the air filter assembly brackets and under the windshield pivot brackets, along with almost every other place. That would mean that the original green was removed and the body completely dissembled, painted and re-assembled. This seems rather labor intensive to me.
Was this standard practice in the military?
Also this jeep came with an arctic top and all the footman loop holes have been welded up, I suspect this was from a previous owner and not the military.
Joined: Apr 17, 2005 Posts: 891 Location: New Hampshire
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject:
I still hold that some m38's came from the factory blue. Mine was the same way as yours. Mine also had the arctic top when I bought it. However all the footman loops are in place, just where the top bow brackets go had bolts in them to seal them up, and no brackets.
As Bill knows I do not believe any M38's left Willys in any color other than 2430 OD. The Willys employees interviewed to date recall no Blue, Gray or Forest Green jeeps on the line until M38A1 production was well under way.
The only Willys blue prints reviewed thus far that address the use of Strata Blue are those for the wheels and the date of the amendment for the Blue was 1960.
The existence of a blue tub simply means that a USAF unit ordered a replacement tub and specified Strata Blue. It is very possible the USAF had the blue tubs stockpiled at a depot level supply point. During the 50's and early 60's when these jeeps were still being used a solid impact from the side would equal a lot more labor and material investment than the cost of a replacement tub. There is evidence the USAF started receiving parts and jeeps in blue around 53/54.
In your case Pat have you sanded the blue down under the brackets and confirmed no OD exists between the bracket and the bare tub? If the USAF received a new 2430 OD tub they would have repainted it strata blue before the assembly. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Here are a couple of pics of the areas that were found blue and no green under the blue, only primer and bare metal.
This is sanded under the air cleaner bracket. No green only blue and then primer.
This is under the windshield pivot bracket, the area has been sanded around the lower hole, again blue, primer and then bare metal.
This is the heater cover opening, the blue is apparent between both the floor and the cover along with the original "gunk" that sealed the cover to the floor.
The hood numbers of the vehicle are in the following two pictures.
This jeep came with plugs in the holes for the top bow hardware.
Last edited by ECVJeeps on Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Apr 17, 2005 Posts: 891 Location: New Hampshire
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject:
So Pat's hood number N-1627, mine is N-1346 so we have a difference of 281, don't you think it is a bit strange that two jeeps with very close hood numbers both show no signs of green paint on the tub? It would seem really strange to me if both jeeps both went through a tub replacement. If both of them did then the USAF was really hard on there jeeps. I have found 4 or 5 other m38's that are the same way as well. Just because a hand full of people that worked at willys did not recall blue m38's does not mean it did not happen. Maybe the person you interviewed was on vacation when 500 or so m38's where painted blue, or didn't happen to work on that shift/shifts. I believe some factory paperwork will turn up proving my point.
Last edited by Bill_F on Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
I am stripping this tub down to the bare metal, and then sandblasting it. Is there any place anyone would like me to look to see if I can find anything of interest?
Within the next couple of weeks there will be no blue, green, purple or orange paint on this thing anywhere.
Been there, done that and it is as blue as the rest of the tub, there is a bit of turquoise paint under the data plate on the dash. Other than that it is blue everywhere, including the floor of the tub.
The tub is on a rotisserie and it is easy to check it all over now.
As I said it can be "WHAT IF" explained either way but there is no solid evidence that any left Willys blue.
All M38's left Willys with USAXXXXXXX numbers. This is because they were all contracted for by the US Army Ordnance Procurement folks. Also they all left with OD2430 which by the way did not have primer under it in the sense the WWII jeeps had red oxide primer. The OD2430 was a self priming paint procedure and the first coat of OD2430 was the primer. The USAF registration numbers were applied later in the jeep's life (1954 or later) and would have been applied at the base that owned the jeep. So the sequencing of the registration numbers has no reliability in determine how close the jeeps were in the procurement system.
A replacement USAF procured part that would have been requested in Strata Blue would have simply had the OD2430 over sprayed Strata Blue.
Which in my opinion is what Pat see's on his jeep. With the 2430 being a semigloss it explains the invasion of the uppermost surface with the blue pigment causing the second coat of 2430 to look like a bluish/grayish primer coat.
At any rate we should agree to disagree and leave it at that until one of us can produce some solid dated evidence other wise. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
This jeep body will be converted to a Canadian army jeep, painted green. I have a Canadian frame with a Canadian wiring harness will all the correct parts to build it as a M38CDN.
As for me seeing green where there is red primer, well I am 53 years old and have leaned the difference between red, blue and green. Once again, I don't know how the jeeps came from the factory, don't really care. This jeep has a RED layer (I would expect it to be primer) then a blue layer (Strata, Royal or Navy, again I don't really care) then various layers of orange and then purple. The only green is on the back side of the plates for the windshield pivot brackets so far. I expect since these small parts do have green on them, other small parts may have green on them also. The main tub has NO green on it as of yet, however I will be checking to confirm this from this point on.
I tend to agree with Wes on this but you are the one standing in front of your jeep so I will take your word for what you see. But, you guys are going to kill me on this one. Could it be these are Navy vehicles?
I have seen color photographs of Navy MB/GPW's (post-war) painted in a similar blue with the chrome yellow lettering. The chrome yellow on the hood appears to be the same as the chrome yellow used by the Marines for hood lettering. It is a very specific color that has to be custom mixed even for the Marines from the Federal Standard Color list. No way to really know but could these vehicles be a continuation of this Navy vehicle paint scheme?
Is USA N-1627 an Air Force ID?
An interesting point to me is that there appears to be more than a few blue with chrome yellow lettering M38's with arctic tops all bearing similar hood numbers and body paint and fittings details. Seems odd to just be a coincidence.
Wes will know this one. Weren't arctic tops installed as a field modification and not at the factory? And, rebuilding vehicles within the service branches was a thorough enterprise?
OK, just a guess that these are a group of rebuilt vehicles for a specific purpose (cold), from a repair and rebuild facility, possibly Navy...
The USAF used "Registration Yellow" for their vehicle markings on blue vehicles. The USAF did not abandon the USA XXXXXXX registration numbers until 1954/55 therefore the numbers shown did not exist untill 1954/55 and if the tub is an original to the jeep tub there must be evidence of the old USA XXXXXXX number under the N-XXXX number. The USAF had even moved the USA XXXXX numbers to the tub when they repainted their tubs Blue in the mid 50's. Since none of those suspect blue tubs have produced a blue hood or tub with the original USA XXXXXX number hidden under their N-XXXX number it stands to reason that either the parts were chemically stripped (erasing all trace of the 2430 OD and USA XXXXXX before the strata blue and N-XXXX were added or the parts were replacement new parts painted strata blue.
In this 1955 photo you can see where the USAF was with their registarion numbers.
Another 1955 photo.
Another 1955 photo.
As you can see the USA XXXXXX stayed a long time and if these tubs were truly that jeep's original tub there should be evidence of this number still below the door sills. The lack of that evidence points directly to chemical stripping or brand new replacement tubs ordered in Blue. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
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