Video of my M38A1 steering system. What looks wrong?

[linx310]

Well i removed that non-stock steering absorber some one installed and tried to diagnose my steering problems including the death wobble i have above 35 mph.

I had my brother turn the steering wheel back and forth. And as you can see in the video it looks like all the connections to the bell crank are sloppy.

Below is video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfguQil-7Lo

Also I put the jeep on jack stands and tried to get the tires to move by pulling and tilting on them. Neither one moved so i think the wheel bearings are ok. The left tire spins a bit more freely then the right tire.

So what do you think? Do you guys see any thing i missed?

[wesk]

Nice idea with the video.

Visual wear issues:
1-both outboard tie rod ends.
2-Bellcrank bearing.
3-Bellcrank to tie rod ball joint.

If the amount of shaking you did was what we saw in the video it was not enough. You need to kneel on the ground close and facing the center of the wheel. grasp both the front and rear of the tread and with your buddy holding the wheel tight shake vigorously and slow enough to observe unwanted movement in the wheel/wheelbearing and back through all that steering linkage. Sometimes a bit of slop only shows up going from the wheel up and sometimes only when going from the steering wheel down.

Now grasp the top and bottom of the tread firmly and try hard to tilt the wheel top in then botom in while watching the pivot bearings very losely for slop.

Then go through the steerin linkage one item at a time and immobilize the items on each side of the one you are checking then try hard to move that item.

With the steering gear box you must immobilize the pitman arm then moving the steering wheel back and forth you should not get anymore than 1 to 1 1/2" of paly at the rim of the steering wheel.

The drag link is spring loaded so you really need to remove it, clean it up and assemble it in accordance with the manual and adjust the preload on each end correctly then check it for ecess play. Even though both ends use the same group of parts the front and rear ends use them in different arrangements. So follow the book closely and DO NOT rely on how they were originally assembled to do your assembly.


Steering bellcrank






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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[linx310]

Thanks for the info.

Yea the shaking of the wheels in the video is not what was done. I literally hugged the tire and titled it back and forth and it felt no play but had no one atm to tape it.

I am gonna try it again with a buddy doing it so i can watch.

Tomorrow I am gonna take it apart and inspect it.

[wesk]

If any tapered steel hole for the tapered part of the balljoint is worn irregular the best and safest thing to do is replace the worn part. Same with the bellcrank. The way she is rocking vertically I think that tapered hole is very worn.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[Silvercrown]

I am trying to figure out if my steering gear is totally wore slap out or if the previous owner opened it up and did not seat something right. Wes I printed out your instructions above and did the tests. The tires had no shift horizontal or vertical. All the ball joints were tightened down to the 20 pounds of force. The bell crank as far as i could tell without taking it apart did not have slop. Ok what I did find is with the front tires off the ground I can move the tires around an inch either way and see the bell crank turning and watch the pitman arm move the small travel without moving the steering wheel. I have around 5 inches of play travel at the steering wheel before I see pitman arm movement. I disconnected the pitman arm and followed the directions for steering gear adjustment. I have the slight drag when moved from side to side and no binding at extreme positions. I tightened everything back up and still have huge amounts of play. I can also move the pitman that inch without moving the steering wheel. With no binding at extreme positions is this totally worn out or something not seated correctly inside? Its pretty scary steering at anything approaching 30mph. What is your thoughts? TM9-1804b has some good tests but not really anything helpful on diagnosis. I have ordered TM 9 804a but will be a week of so till it gets here.

[wesk]

That 5" of play is there somewhere. You should get a helper to move things while you watch.

With the wheels on the ground.

When disconnecting the drag link mark the front end. Although it looks the same on bot ends it is not.

Disconnect the drag link from the pitman arm. Clamp. tie or bolt the pitman arm solid so it cannot move. How much play in the rim of the steering wheel now? If less than 2" the steering gear box is ok.

If the gear box was ok disconnect the front of the drag link at the bellcrank.
Rig a lever to use on the free end of the bellcrank and forcefully try to move it and follow and isolate any movement all the way to the steering knuckles.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[skyjeep50]

The sector shaft, worm shaft and steering box bushings are also sources of steering "slop". My CJ2A had the same symptoms as yours plus the aftermarket steering damper installed. After replacing the worn sector shaft and bushings (the worm was Ok), replacing worn tie rod ends and cleaning and adjusting everything else as suggested in the other posts and according to the manual, the steering was nice and tight. Since your steering wheel movement seems excessive, you might want to take a look inside the steering gear box and check for component wear there. The pins on the sector shaft should be round but can wear to an oval shape allowing the steering worm gear to spin without moving the sector shaft. One challenge is that replacement sector shafts are not available for M38A1's. My M38A1 has some of the same problems as yours but I haven't tore into it yet because I haven't found the parts. Bushings and bearings are available and entire rebuilt or NOS steering gear boxes, but apparently not the sector shafts by themselves. One post I came across suggested having a machinist remove the sector shaft pins and rotate them 90 degrees to put the non-worn sides in contact with the worm. Good luck with your project.
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1951 M38

[Silvercrown]

Hi guys, I see where the 5 inches of play at the wheel is coming from now. It’s the pins wobbling in the worm gear grooves. It is also what is causing the inch or so of play on the pitman arm side of the gear box. I was surprised that they are lose and are moving causing the wheel play before moving the worm shaft. The bushing seem fine and from what I can see the worm shaft looks good. I was not able to get the pitman arm off to remove the sector shaft. It looks like from the parts diagram that it should tap off the grooved end of the shaft once the nut is off. Is this correct? I did some pretty persuasive tapping and it would not budge and thought I would ask before I broke something I could not see. I have a cj3b steering box and an old MB box. I know you do not want to use the worm gear as the turn ratios are very different for the heaver A1 but what about the sector shaft from one of those if they are still good?

Mike

[wesk]

Mike,
The sector shafts are different and I'm not sure the pins are the same or not. It is not that difficult to get new pins machined and installed. The real trick is hardening the surface metal of the new pins. Using old pins from another sector will leave the fit issue open for the pin in the holes of the sector. A new pair of pins machined for an interference fit where you need to freeze the pins and heat the sector to get them together is the way to go.
Maybe someone among us can come up with an unworn pin and post the dimensions.

Pitman arms are a tough fit for safety reasons. There is a standard automotive pitman arm removal tool that does the job nicely. Do you have a copy of the running gear TM handy


_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[skyjeep50]

Another idea that I had was to replace the steering gear from the steering wheel down to the gear box with a CJ5 unit. There may be more parts available for replacement. But I don't know if that would work - anybody tried that on a M38A1?
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1951 M38

[wesk]

Due to variations in the steering gear ratios it is acceptable to put the M38/CJ3A/CJ3B/CJ5/CJ6 Ross unit in an M38A1 but not vice versa for the M38/CJ3A/CJ3B.

I believe Silvercrown has an M38 so an early CJ5 gear box will work.

The M38A1 gear box is a one off for the A1 only and is meatier and tougher then the CJ5/6's box.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php