Anyone know if there is a way to tell if a steering knuckle is a newer one that does not need the .058 shim pack on the bottom king pin?
I have a 52 M-38 and when I took the knuckles apart there were no shims on the bottom pin. Since it is a 52 I planned on putting back properly with the shims on the bottom, but on reassembly it will not tighten up with that much shim on the bottom. Even with no shims on top.
It makes me wonder if the knuckles could have been replaced with newer ones that don't need the shims on the bottom. Could that be why it did not have any before.
I believe that you should be putting the shims on the top bearing not the bottom. _________________ Tropical Veteran
35th Inf. Reg. "CACTI" 4th I.D. VN
Amateur Radio K5XOM
The overhaul description on Novaks website is very clear that you put the .058 shim pack on the bottom and then adjust the preload with the top pin. It describes how in approx 1958 the knuckle was redesigned to add the .058 to the knuckle, eliminating the need for the bottom shims.
Yeah ok, maybe you have the redesigned version. I went back and reread you first post. _________________ Tropical Veteran
35th Inf. Reg. "CACTI" 4th I.D. VN
Amateur Radio K5XOM
I'm thinking that may be the case, also. I've decided to fall back on the old addage, "if it aint broke don't fix it" and I'm putting it back together with no shims on the bottom.
I've owned this jeep since the mid 70s and this is the first time I've opened up the knuckles. On dissassembly they seemed to be in excellent condition aside from needing adjustment. The grease was a little dried out, but nothing too bad. They had regular wheel bearing grease in them. I've gone ahead and changed the bearings since I was in there and am installing new seals, but since they were working the way they were, I figure they will be ok that way again.
Joined: Jan 07, 2011 Posts: 63 Location: Idaho Falls, ID
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:56 pm Post subject:
Yes, I know I'm digging up an old post here, but I'm running into a similar problem.
I see that none of the ORD 9s for my M38 list the bottom shims, but this Novak site does have the "0.058 shim stack" note. Normally, I'd trust my ORD 9s more, but here's where it gets funky. I have shims on the bottom, but not the same number on both sides, and neither adds to 0.058.
The shims look like:
And have "VALVE SPRING SHIM - HOUSER-BLUFFTON, IND." stamped on them. My left knuckle has 0.020+0.019 and my right has 0.020.
So, should I indeed have these shims, and if so, what should the total stack be? _________________ 1952 M38 - restoration in process, 1000 miles away...
The front axles that used lower shims were on the MB and CJ2A. Beginning with the CJ3A in 1948 the new style knuckle used only top shims. That is why you don't see any reference to lower shims in M series jeep manuals. The shims have 4 holes for the bolts/studs so I think your valve spring shims are a bubba thing. The adjusting procedure is to start with installing one each of each size shim (.003, .005, .010 & .030) in the top of the knuckle and check preload. Did you notice that's a total of .048" in shims? Preload at the start of the sweep should be 12 to 16 Lbs with no oil seal installed. Adjust by removing or adding shims on the top only. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
The CJ service manual SM-1002 is really nicely written and easier to follow. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Jan 07, 2011 Posts: 63 Location: Idaho Falls, ID
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:00 am Post subject:
Do you have any suggestions on where to get a quality printing of the CJ service manual? I'm really more of a paper manual guy, so using a pdf isn't attractive. Does the SM-1002 basically cover everything in TM 9-8012 and TM 9-1804A/B? I already have 9-8012 and 9-1804B. My dad's old MB manual covers the engine (I think), so I had hoped I was done acquiring manuals.
Stuart _________________ 1952 M38 - restoration in process, 1000 miles away...
Yes the three basic M38 manuals carry most of the data from the civvy 1002 plus any M38 specific items. The MB engine manual 1803A is for the chain drive cam engine.
Portrayal Press and Turner 4WD both carry the SM-1002. The 1002 covers all CJ's 1945 through 54 and is usually current thru 1965. The SM-1046 covers the 54 thru 71 era and covers the F134 and Dauntless V6 engines used in the CJ5/6. It covers the CJ3B and it's F134 tru 1968. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Jan 07, 2011 Posts: 63 Location: Idaho Falls, ID
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:05 am Post subject:
wesk wrote:
Preload at the start of the sweep should be 12 to 16 Lbs with no oil seal installed.
TM 9-1804B paragraph 110 calls for 6 to 9 lbs when pulling on the tie rod socket hole, so that's what I used. I don't think I could even obtain 12 lbs. My total shim stack on the right ended at 0.010 and on the left at 0.016. This seems really low, considering where I started and the old stack (0.050 on both sides). Of course, those valve shims had the effect of requiring more shims on the top.
I couldn't find an official torque spec for the cap bolts, so I used 40 ft-lbs as mentioned in the Novak article.
Does my ending stack sound reasonable? These are with new bearings. _________________ 1952 M38 - restoration in process, 1000 miles away...
Joined: Jan 07, 2011 Posts: 63 Location: Idaho Falls, ID
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:03 am Post subject:
wesk wrote:
12 pounds is attainable. Was your spring scale recently calibrated?
I'm using a digital force gauge, the measurements of which match other instruments I have around the house. It was last calibrated by the factory in 2005, but I can say with confidence the error is nowhere near multiple pounds. _________________ 1952 M38 - restoration in process, 1000 miles away...
Are you measuring 6 Lbs after the knuckle starts moving? The correct place to measure is just as the knuckle breaks loose and starts to move and that figure should be much higher than 6 Lbs.
The bolts for the king pin bearing caps are 3/8x24NF zinc or cad plated, 85,000 PSI yield strength which puts them in the high end of Grade 5.
Whenever a manual offers no specific torque value then you must refer to a standard torque chart using the bolts size, thread pitch, coating material, class, and application. More modern manuals have a standard torque chart in them. Older manuals often do not.
The standard torque for that bolt is 42Lbs then apply slip or K factor for plating material type.
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I'll follow the official instructions.
