Joined: May 14, 2009 Posts: 972 Location: South Dakota
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:26 pm Post subject: Hood Number approximation?
On WW2 Jeeps, there is a great database of serial and DOD info which allows one to make a very accurate if not exact ID on your lost hood Number. This is on G 503.com. My M 38 hood numbers and unit numbers are long gone. My DOD is 3-51, serial is 14768, engine is MC 15745, Stock ID # is G2740 8358318. Can anyone help with a approximate hood #????? According to Ryans book, my serial # shows a contract group in that range as 1950? Does that mean it was made then and delivered in 3-51? Tom, Wes, Ryan, can you help with your info. on figuring out a close hood #? I'm going to put it on when I paint it. Thanks in advance for any help. John
The WWII jeeps have that wonderful list of hood numbers vs serial numbers because they had access to the factory contracts and production data which researchers had secured back in the 60's from Ford and Willys. They uncovered all factory production records which listed serials with their corresponding group of hood numbers based on each of their contracts. Willys/Kaiser went defunct in 1971 and much of their archival data was simply destroyed.
To date none of that data has been released or surfaced for the M38 and M38A1. The contract data we have compiled to date is based on the contract numbers found on the dash serial plates of existing jeeps and archived business news releases that announced contract amounts awarded and estimated or requested quantities.
Back to estimating a hood number. for M38 and M38A1/M170 production the hood registration numbers were issued in a lot equaling the requested number of vehicles under a specific contract. For example (imaginary numbers follow) if M38 contract DA-20-018-ORD-9196 was for 5000 M38's. The Army gave Kaiser a 5000 block of hood numbers. So lets say 2381000 thru 2386000. Now let's imagine that the jeeps delivered under that contract were MC13000 thru MC18000. It would stand to reason that MC15500 would then be 2383500? Not necessarily so. Maybe in a perfect world but not in a factory assembly line environment. Also we do not have any official production records telling us what serials were built under which contracts and what serials got which hood number at Willys. What we do know are only approximations made on assumptions about the few shreds of evidence we can find and that evidence leaves a lot of room for error. What we do know is the hood numbers were painted on the jeeps in the order they left the assembly line. What we do know is the jeeps seldom managed to stay in correct serial sequence down the line. Slow downs, shortages in parts and equipment malfunctions as well as units failing to meet inspections at required check points along the line all resulted in mixing the serial flow up.
For us as researchers waiting for the holy grail (actual Willys/Kaiser serialized production records) must analyse what data we can find to make approximations and estimates and even guesses at what was what. So to that end we have strived to get a 100% response from all current M38, M38A1, M170, CJV35 and M606 series jeep owners to our request for them to complete a survey of their jeeps with our survey checklist. This survey checklist is emailed to every owner that registered for our web sites. Our actual success rate is very low. Out of 2636 members of this web site and 1126 members of our related Yahoo Group for a total of 3762 members I have received no more than 150 M38, 11 M38 CDN, 95 M38A1, 9 M38A1 CDN, 12 M170, 1 CJV35 and 0 M606 series survey forms. Not a very good showing for a hobby where everyone wants information to help with their restorations but apparently very few desire to share any information.
Ok back to estimating or contriving a hood number. Yes it is neat to have a hood number original to your jeep. Yes it is not neat to not know what hood number came with your jeep from the factory. Researchers who rely on finding original jeep data from data plates and original markings found under the layers of paint hate to see someone throw an arbitrary "close enough" number on their hood so down the road we mistakenly interpret it as a correct original number for that serial number jeep. This will skewer the researched data up. What has become the "Gentleman's accepted method of contriving a new hood number" is to use the first 3 digits of the most common hood number in that serial group say 238XXXX then insert the last four of your jeep's serial number so that MC14425 would contrive the hood number 2384425. This becomes obvious years from now to a researcher that the number was contrived and not original from Willys.
In your case John it would be 2384768.
Have you finished your survey form yet?
Note: If you are referring to Page 198 in Ryan's book try to remember what I said above. There are no official factory documents that have been released to us that support those dates, quantities and dollars. That information is developed from unofficial sources such as period news releases, industry historical works, Willys/Kaiser employee accounts and observations of currently owned jeeps. We gathered that data and then made approximations based on them. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: May 14, 2009 Posts: 972 Location: South Dakota
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:02 am Post subject:
Thanks again as always Wes! I was dissapointed when I broke gently through the green junk paint, and then the red primer to find only bare metal. I would like to fill out your form for you and will be very glad to share all my info. ( please send me your form again and I'll print it off and keep it at work where the Jeep is) It will be a while until I get the body off before I can read the transmission and drive train #'s. I did fill out my M38A1's form for you and will do so again with this Jeep. Sadly, it's not a treasure trove of original 24 volt items this time. The engine is not a RMC # and is about 1000 over the serial, so it may indeed be the original. The Willys data plate and military brass dash plate match and are in pretty good shape after a gentle cleaning and hand work. The willys plate is the aluminum , not brass finish. This is a early one with the rear lift hooks on the front also. Original front bumper also without any #'s under the paint. I guess what my last hope for is someone with a very close Serial that does have their hood #. If all filled out your form, you would have a chance of answering my question. For now, I'll use the last 4 #'s as you suggested. The DPO's ( dumb previous owners) had a half cab on it and tossed fire wood in the back up as high as they could. I'm working the floor and wheel wells back up to their original height while the tub is still bolted down. I chained the frame down to my car hoist and am using a jack and wood to push up and work it. Works very well! Green Disease as John Bizal accused me of having. I still owe you a cool one if you come to the Hills! John
I'll take you up on that soon. As I said above any shot in the dark guessing on the final set of numbers on the hood only creates research issues later on and makes this job of working the history data backwards only more confusing and harder. Same goes for folks that throw on another jeeps data plates and then that leaves us scratching our heads trying to figure out how that jeep has traits attributed to an entirely different serial group. The missing data plate guy should get a set of repop plates and stamp them with a state assigned or contrived serial number so we can tell later that it's original serial was lost. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Jan 07, 2011 Posts: 63 Location: Idaho Falls, ID
Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:03 am Post subject:
As for contriving a serial number to put on repop plates, isn't that asking for trouble? I'd think that some states would frown upon that. However, if it's legal, then picking a number well outside the serial number range used on the vehicle would be safe from a collector-confusion point of view. Check state laws and going with getting a state-assigned number would be the safer route.
Of course, contriving a registration number doesn't present any legal problem.
Note: California allows the owner of a VIN to reapply that number during restoration. But, I have to already own that VIN, not just make it up. That said, the title on our M38 uses the engine serial number, not the body, although that could be due to my dad not knowing the location of the body patent plate, which does exist. _________________ 1952 M38 - restoration in process, 1000 miles away...
In many states, the serial number isn't the VIN (not enough digits). However, sometimes, they do get linked to a title. I screwed up and registered based on the dashplate SN. Turns out the dash plate is the only thing on my Jeep that dates to 1963. Everything else looks Willys. The state of KY issued me a VIN plate to attach to my M38a1.
Joined: May 14, 2009 Posts: 972 Location: South Dakota
Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:32 pm Post subject:
The military designated hood # has nothing to do on your title. My Jeep has it's original serial # and has always been titled with it. Every state is different. Some don't even title antiques. John
As for contriving a serial number to put on repop plates, isn't that asking for trouble?
Of course it is. Who has suggested doing that?
The discussion has been about contriving a hood number not a serial number.
Contriving serial numbers is against the law in most states. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Jan 07, 2011 Posts: 63 Location: Idaho Falls, ID
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:19 am Post subject:
wesk wrote:
Of course it is. Who has suggested doing that?
You did, or at least that's how I interpreted what you wrote (added emphasis mine):
wesk wrote:
Same goes for folks that throw on another jeeps data plates and then that leaves us scratching our heads trying to figure out how that jeep has traits attributed to an entirely different serial group. The missing data plate guy should get a set of repop plates and stamp them with a contrived or state assigned serial number so we can tell later that it's original serial was lost.
As far as I was aware, the Army's hood number was never stamped on any of the data plates for the vehicles discussed here, hence the necessity of sanding through layers of paint in hopes of finding the number.
I understand that it's perfectly OK to contrive a hood registration number and that the discussion of the thread was centered around that. It was just your comment above that I wanted to clarify. _________________ 1952 M38 - restoration in process, 1000 miles away...
The missing data plate guy should get a set of repop plates and stamp them with a contrived or state assigned serial number so we can tell later that it's original serial was lost.
Sorry about that. That was not my intention. My intent for the term contrived in that sentence was part of the state's process of assigning a number they contrive or assigning a number from an on going list they use. Various states develop (contrive) VIN's in different ways which includes some that use part or all of the original serial number or model number.
I'll change the arrangement of that sentence. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Jan 07, 2011 Posts: 63 Location: Idaho Falls, ID
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:42 am Post subject:
OK, that makes more sense. I figured each state would just have an incrementing number they assign, but if the state wants to contrive one, they can knock themselves out.
Thanks for the clarification. I just wanted to make sure none of us end up hearing the phrase "Here's your new cell, and your roommate Bubba". _________________ 1952 M38 - restoration in process, 1000 miles away...
After reading the info. concerning the hood numbers, where do I find the most common # in my serial group? The hood was MIA from my jeep when I purchased it. According to my data plates the jeep was delivered 9/51 with a VIN # of 35462 and the stock# plate off of the glove box is G2740-8358318. Any help with this will be appreciated.
Hello: I have just started restoring a M170 Ambulance that appears to be mostly complete and still in its military and then civil defense markings. Anyways, I did not complete survey yet, but i can provide this information.
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I guess what my last hope for is someone with a very close Serial that does have their hood #. If all filled out your form, you would have a chance of answering my question. For now, I'll use the last 4 #'s as you suggested. The DPO's ( dumb previous owners) had a half cab on it and tossed fire wood in the back up as high as they could. I'm working the floor and wheel wells back up to their original height while the tub is still bolted down. I chained the frame down to my car hoist and am using a jack and wood to push up and work it. Works very well! Green Disease as John Bizal accused me of having. I still owe you a cool one if you come to the Hills! 
John
