Joined: Nov 14, 2011 Posts: 45 Location: Orlando, fl
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:11 pm Post subject: Excesive toe in
What could be the cause of excesive toe in on the right side tire (2 1/2 inch). Left is about 1/8 in.
There is no damage to the tie rod.
The jeep wants to turn right when I let the steering wheel go.
Problem has been getting worse.
There is excesive wear on the right side tire, left is fine.
I haven't damaged the front end in any way.
What could be causing this?
The control of toe in is the tie rods. You either have a bent tie rod, the wrong tie rod or a severely mal-adjusted tie rod. Adjustment is simple. To decrease the right toe-in lengthen the right tie rod. If there is not enough adjustment in the two tie rod ends then the tie rod is either bent or simply too short because it is not the correct tie rod.
Caster and camber are non-adjustable meaning their dimensions are set permanently at the factory. However if you read the civvy manuals the caster is correctable using tapered shims between the axle housing and the spring.
Excessive toe in on the right will result in excessive wear on the inside edge of the tire and a pull to the left.
A very loose wheel bearing on the right will result in excess camber and in excessive wear of the inside edge of the tire and a pull to the right. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Feb 16, 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Gold Coast Australia
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:52 pm Post subject:
You need to check a number of things before jumping to conclusions.
Pulling one direction or the other can be something as simple as tyre pressure.
Have you checked the steering box is centred when the wheels are in the straight ahead position?
Toe in is easily checked. Have you done this?
There are parameters to get straight first before diving into the nitty gritty & Wes has suggested a couple including bearing adjustment.
This is easily checked....jack up each front wheel & check in & out movement @ the top....by rocking
If there is movement have someone apply the brakes & if the movemnet is gone or considerably reduced you have loose wheel bearings.
Always remember that when things like tyres are worn a certain way correcting the original/causational problem will not stop or correct the wear pattern on those tyres. _________________ John GIBBINS
ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician 2002 USA
Licensed Motor Mechanic NSW # MVIC 49593 Current
YOU CAN'T TROUBLESHOOT WHAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND
Joined: Nov 14, 2011 Posts: 45 Location: Orlando, fl
Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:45 pm Post subject:
John,
I did check the toe in and the left tire is 1/8'' right is 2 1/2"
But the jeep pulls to the right. Should be pulling left with 2 1/2" toe in on the right.
There is a little play in the steering Wheel, but I believe not enough to cause a 2 1/2" toe In.
Tire pressure 25.
I removed the bearings today and they appear to be good, intact with no missing ball bearings.
I'm going to reinstall my bearings and see if they where lose to begin with.
I did notice play with the axle but I don't know if this is normal or not.
When I removed the bearing nut, it was tight, I'll tighten it a little more (making sure the wheel turns) and try to move the tire like you suggest.
Joined: Feb 16, 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Gold Coast Australia
Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:20 pm Post subject:
i am being serious & not trying to be smart....
Quote:
toe in and the left tire is 1/8'' right is 2 1/2"
is incomprehensible.
When the steering box is centralised both wheels should be close to straight ahead & the steering wheel in the correct position.
then there are a number of ways to establish the wheels are toeing in about 1/16" on each side or perhaps less.
When you are driving the wheel geometry is designed on the Jeep so the wheels are close to straight ahead & not wearing tyres out. _________________ John GIBBINS
ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician 2002 USA
Licensed Motor Mechanic NSW # MVIC 49593 Current
YOU CAN'T TROUBLESHOOT WHAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND
Toe-in is measured from one tire to the other, so when you say the left is toed in 1/8" and the right is toed in 2-1/2" what you are actually saying is that your toe-in is 2-5/8". Apparently most of the excessive toe-in is on the right side which means that if you have the steering wheel centered the left wheel is pointed slightly to the right and the right wheel is turned to the left a lot. Neither tire has more traction than the other, so for the jeep to travel straight ahead both wheels have to point equally ahead. This means that once the jeep starts moving, you are going to have to turn the steering wheel to the right slightly if you are going to travel straight. With your 2-5/8" toe in, once the jeep is moving straight ahead the left wheel will be aimed 1-5/16" to the right and the right wheel will be aimed 1-5/16" to the left. Basically your jeep will be going down the road in a pidgeon toed fashion, but to achieve this you moved the steering wheel to the right. Is this shifting the wheel to the right what you mean when you say it pulls right? If so, then what you describe is to be expected.
OK folks. Let's try this again with a better understanding of how we should communicate here.
Old Salt,
Your post is interesting but you make the assumption that the steering has no slop or play. Just which way the jeep would pull depends on where and how much play there is in the system. The direction you are headed is great in the classroom or at the bar but does little to solve the poster's problem. You are somewhat correct when you say it is measured between the wheels but with modern front end alignment equipment it is measure at each wheel individually.
Jerry,
To get back on track it would be in your best interest to review the manual or google a few presentations on the basics of front end alignment. Then I would suggest the following:
1-Get rid of all excess play in the steering system, the axle king pins (steering pivots) and the wheel bearings.
2-Confirm the tires are good and have no tread or case anomalies that would lead to poor tracking.
3-Center the steering gear box by counting total turns and then splitting the turn count 50/50. Clamp the steering wheel in this position.
4-Insure the relative positions of the steering bellcrank and the pitman arm are as stated in the manual.
5-Adjust tie rods to place both front wheels straight ahead. Lacking proper wheel alignment equipment use a long straight edge across the sides of the front and rear wheels to ascertain the front wheel is straight ahead.
6-Now roll the jeep ahead on the floor one turn of the tire. Recheck the front wheel position for straight ahead. Re-adjust if needed.
7-Now adjust the two front tie rods equally to bring the toe-in to spec in the manual. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
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