Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 2004 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:51 pm Post subject:
While thumbing through my TM9-1804B (M38 Power Train, Body, and Frame) July 1952 edition I came across an interesting photo (Figure 14 on page 40).
I couldn't figure out how to cut and paste it here, but the manual is in the downloads section if you don't have a paper copy.
It looks like there might've been an "early" passenger seat --- it looks very much like the photo that Wes posted above as the CJ2A seat. _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
I looked at both of my early M38s and they both have the braces without the front part. One is about un abused as they come. I need more convincing to believe both of these are CJ2 seat frames. _________________ '52 Dodge M37, '42 GPW, '48 FrankenJeep CJ2A/M38, '50 CJV-35(U), '51 M38, '42 WC-57 Command Car, '44 WC-51 Weapons , (2) M1941 Sperry 60" Anti-Aircraft Searchlights, John Deere M-gator, '44 White M3A1 Scout Car
While thumbing through my TM9-1804B (M38 Power Train, Body, and Frame) July 1952 edition I came across an interesting photo (Figure 14 on page 40).
I couldn't figure out how to cut and paste it here, but the manual is in the downloads section if you don't have a paper copy.
It looks like there might've been an "early" passenger seat --- it looks very much like the photo that Wes posted above as the CJ2A seat.
Nice find! That is exactly what both of my passenger seat frames look like, right down to the hole in the flat part. _________________ '52 Dodge M37, '42 GPW, '48 FrankenJeep CJ2A/M38, '50 CJV-35(U), '51 M38, '42 WC-57 Command Car, '44 WC-51 Weapons , (2) M1941 Sperry 60" Anti-Aircraft Searchlights, John Deere M-gator, '44 White M3A1 Scout Car
RonD2 wrote:
While thumbing through my TM9-1804B (M38 Power Train, Body, and Frame) July 1952 edition I came across an interesting photo (Figure 14 on page 40).
I couldn't figure out how to cut and paste it here, but the manual is in the downloads section if you don't have a paper copy.
7697534 is the complete passenger seat assembly with cushions and all.
Up to your post we have been comparing the bare seat frames by their part number. The Bare right pass seat frame is 7697505, WO# 673511 . This number is the same as found in the M38 1951 ORD 9 and the M38 1955 ORD 9 and the M38A1 1956 ORD 9. So it is clear that there was no change in pass seat frame part number for the M38, M38A1 from the date of the 1951 M38 ORD 9 thru the M38A1 ORD 9 coverage. It is also clear that the TM 9-1804B was printed in 1951/52 using a lot of photos from the 1949 CJV35 for it's reference photos which would explane Fig 14 on page 40 in TM 9-1804B.
The bare right pass seat frames for the CJ's are:
CJ3A WO# 670366
CJ2A WO# 663605
With Keith Buckley Stranded in Hawaii we can't get our hands on the factory drawings for these 3 seat frames. But I think, based on the forgoing info, that Willys occasionally substituted 2A/3A seats during M38 production or the Army procured a few CJ2A/3A seat frames which made their way into the M38 over the years. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
I disagree. That is not a CJV in that figure. CJVs do not have a removable gauge panel. Nor is that a CJV tool box. CJVs have a special narrowed tool box to make room for the auxiliary generator that goes between the seats. Also, CJVs do not have a radio power connection connector like the M38 version clearly shown in that figure. CJVs do not have the M38 style data plates. CJVs don't have the heater access plate on the passenger floor. CJVs have the parking brake handle to the right of the gauge cluster. CJVs also do not have the rifle mounting bracket or the holes for them in the windshield frame.
The CJV passenger seat frame is 674001 and is marked in the parts book as: "peculiar to W. O. Model CJ-V35 U". The left front leg is moved to the right so the leg can land on the narrow tool box.
Willys drawings got revised many times rather than change part numbers if it did not affect form, fit or function. We need to see the the drawing for the seat frame and see its revisions. _________________ '52 Dodge M37, '42 GPW, '48 FrankenJeep CJ2A/M38, '50 CJV-35(U), '51 M38, '42 WC-57 Command Car, '44 WC-51 Weapons , (2) M1941 Sperry 60" Anti-Aircraft Searchlights, John Deere M-gator, '44 White M3A1 Scout Car
MSDAIN Said: I disagree. That is not a CJV in that figure.
Quote:
WesK said: It is also clear that the TM 9-1804B was printed in 1951/52 using a lot of photos from the 1949 CJV35 for it's reference photos which would explane Fig 14 on page 40 in TM 9-1804B.
My statement was to show that vehicle substitutions were often used in the ealr pubs for any vehicle. That photo could have been one of the 6 pilot M38's produced by Willys & tested by the Army before actual M38 production started as well.
Also, as I have already stated in this posting, there could have been a change in drawing & not part number but we can't find out for sure until Keith gets back from Hawaii to review available blue prints.
And finally no one with the possible exception of someone holding a NOS seat frame in it's original 1950/51 crate with official Willys stenciling, or all three seat factory drawings, can positively ID any seat so far illustrated as being any of the three primary Willys part numbers. (WO#'s 673511, 670366 or 663605) _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Apr 04, 2005 Posts: 221 Location: Monticello, NY
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:28 pm Post subject:
Just thought I'd add some information about CJ-2A and CJ-3A seat frames here.
CJ-2A and CJ-3A seat frames are not interchangeable. The photo below shows the driver's seat frames, but the passenger side construction is similar. It is easy to see the difference between a CJ-2A seat frame and a CJ-3A seat frame. On a CJ-2A the front and center "crossmembers" are round tube. On a CJ-3A the front and center "crossmembers" are channel.
CJ-3A passenger seats used the L shaped leg 670371 up until about the 1952 to 1953 model year change point and then it changed to the stronger closed shape 681189.
_________________ Bob W. Monticello, NY. 1952 CJ3A, 1952 M38, 1950 CJV-35/U
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 2004 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Tue May 12, 2020 8:31 pm Post subject:
Wow! There's nothing so nice, and something very special about a well-drawn engineering diagram. Especially vintage ones like this that survive to this day!
Thanks for posting it. _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
I agree! The old hand drawn Engineering drawings can almost be a work of art.
And now we know that our early M38s with their non-complete triangular seat leg are in fact correct. _________________ '52 Dodge M37, '42 GPW, '48 FrankenJeep CJ2A/M38, '50 CJV-35(U), '51 M38, '42 WC-57 Command Car, '44 WC-51 Weapons , (2) M1941 Sperry 60" Anti-Aircraft Searchlights, John Deere M-gator, '44 White M3A1 Scout Car
Joined: Jun 25, 2008 Posts: 583 Location: Kern Co.
Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 9:54 pm Post subject:
No matter what I did I was unhappy with the early seat stop arrangement. I ended up welding a small extension on the rhs and a foot on the lhs of ps seat. The extension on the rhs rests on the reinforcement rib. This allowed the ps seat to sit at the same height as the drivers seat, has a firm resting point and does not rock. Other than this I kept everything stock. If your a purist you may not go for this. Hopefully you can see these picture because Photobucket is holding my pictures hostage.
Edit: Didn't realize this is for M38 may not help you. I have an A1.
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 2004 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:21 pm Post subject:
M38 ORD9 page 302
G740-7697504, WO-670371 used through serial number 58361.
After serial number 58361 uses G758-8328488, WO-681189.
_________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
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