Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:15 pm Post subject: M38A1 Bumper Specs
Ok I know this might open a can of worms.... lol but here goes. I have M38A1 early 1953 it's a USMC delivered which I believe is pretty rare USN plate on driver's side glove box states that is wired for 24V by USN. Mostly intact I will be doing restore on it. I spent my life in US Army and USAF retired with 32 years. I know I can hear the laughing now.
Who can help with specs for front and rear bumpers missing the front I knows it supposed to be 54 1/4 " Length ???? any one actually have specs from OEM?
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 2005 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:04 pm Post subject:
Hi Keith, and welcome!
What's another can of worms? I'm not laughing, but have a couple of questions that may help clarify your search for answers.
Are you asking for specs (dimensions) so you can build your own?
I did a quick search of old posts and couldn't find one with that info (doesn't mean it's not there).
Maybe you already know this if you have the manuals, but I discovered that the M38 and M38A1 use the same front bumpers, both short and long. Neither ORD9 gives the vehicle serial number when they changed from short to long, but AJP gives M38A1 serial number 43618 and earlier using the short one and after that using the long. No such info for the M38 that I found.
What serial number is your M38A1? If your 1953 model is an early serial number, maybe the short bumper is correct rather than the long?
The short front bumper (46-inch) is G740-7372818, WO-801386 and most of the specs including hole locations are illustrated on page 135 of the M38 Reference Guide.
The long front bumper is G758-8331831, WO-808969. Can't find an illustration with dimensions for it.
Both short and long front bumpers are available as repops for about $95 plus shipping from MWM and AJP.
You probably already know that the rear bumper on an M38A1 built for the Marines is unique to that service.
One of the members here has access to a lot of the Willys factory engineering drawings.
Maybe he'll see your post.
Your Navy data plate that says it's wired for 24 volts is odd because all M38A1's came out of the factory as 24 volts already. Can you post a photo of the data plate?
I'm thinking it's the data plate for a Radio Set (ex: AN/MRC-87). The Marines got a lot of radios from the Navy back in the day.
When a Radio Set was bolted down in a jeep they also riveted a data plate for it onto the dash.
In effect, for accounting in the books, the jeep became part of the Radio Set.
Good luck! _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
First off always keep in mind that when the Army fell in love with the Willys M38A1 prototype they took a short cut they didn't use often and simply amended contract DA-33-019-ORD-630 which started out with the tail end of M38 production and directed Willys to terminate M38 production Jun 1952 and start M38A1 production Jun 1952 continuing with the same contract. Of course in those first few months of M38A1 production the Army saw fit to curtail a lot of production items like Fording systems and switch many production items like bumpers by adding more amendments to contract -630.
The earliest ORD 9 SNL G-740 I have is Nov 1951 and it only lists the original length M38 bumper ORD pn 7372818, WO pn 801386.
The next M38 ORD 9 SNL G-740 is dated SEP 1955 and it lists the primary bumper as ORD PN 7372818, WO pn 801386. It then adds the the newer M38A1 bumper ORD PN 8331831, WO pn 808969 as the superseding PN to be ordered for a replacement from the field units.
This may sound confusing so to help sort it out the Army did do us a favor. Look closely at your ORD 9's and you'll see a column of numbers over more to the left of the page called "Ordnance Stock Numbers" if you go to the front of the ORD 9 it will explain this on page 3 & 4 in Par. 13. In the case of these bumpers the M38 bumper had a ORD stock number of G740-7372818 meaning this part was first used on the M38 production. If you look at the later M38A1 bumper it's ORD Stock Number is G758-8331831 meaning it was first used on the M38A1. Now the Army does try to save money once in awhile so since they have 1 new item that will fit both the m38 & the M38A1 they notify Willys they no longer need to provide spare early bumpers after 1954 because they will use the later M38A1 bumper on both jeeps from now on.
Keith Buckley Has been very helpful with production reports and blueprints for many years. He was fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to bid on a few tons of Willys paperwork when Kaiser/AMC shut the old plant down. I will contact him to see if he can forward these two bumper blueprints to me and I'll post them if he can find them.
I've learned over the last 50 years of jeep tinkering that you cannot always rely on a vendors listing of eligibility for their parts which they do sell for a profit! In our M38A1 database which came to us 15 years ago from the owner of the M38A1 web site in Texas where the bumper length question was always asked they seem to start fading out around Jan 53 MD348XX. If we can get a copy of the Bumper Blueprints then we can probably nail down the date the wide bumper took over.
One other point that we should set straight is there is no rear bumper on the M38/M38A1 & M170. They all use the oval bumperettes. The Marine Corp. mod referred to occurs to the two front bumper lift hooks and the adds a doubler to the rear crossmember and adds the lifting eyes out at the outboard edges of the modified rear crossmember.
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:24 am Post subject: M38A1 Bumper Specs
Ok guys I tried to insert images but then I used the FAQ and found that I need to request a personal photo gallery. I guess I will try and do that.
In any event the Jeep is definitely a USMC version. But the MOD that was sighted was never done. Since that was depot stuff, they probably never got around to it. It was amazing what we didn't do in the military when it really didn't affect serviceability. The M151 was notorious for that, but with all those things issues I still loved driving them. Same for M35A1 and A2 etc. We used to drive 5 tons through the woods and wasn't a lot that we couldn't just run over.
Funny about the US Army they specialized in teaching kids to drive 2 1/2-ton trucks. Then once you got that down wasn't much else, they wouldn't put on your mil license. Got a 10-ton forklift on my license after a little one on one class by my NCOIC.
Since I was Infantry, I absolutely loved driving M113 if I could have one in back yard it would be there.
But getting back to the M38A1 yes, I want to fabricate bumper. All I need is proper dimensions. If no one knows the specs I will have to measure the frame and just make it out of C channel. Since that's all it really is anyway. Also looking at making the top bows for this Jeep if you guys know anyone who has the specs on that I bought all the proper mounting hardware for it. Would be a great help not reinventing the wheel if anyone has this info already.
Going to get this thing what I heard collectors call motor pool resto. Serviceable and correct for what it is then taking my 96-Year-old dad who is also a US Army retiree. And let him drive it around it will be a real time machine for him. He did last of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I will have to post pics if Wes gives me the ok.
Alright guys many thanks for all the help. I'm sure I will be a pest in the future.
All the best,
Keith
When the Army made the big switch in the early 60's to the M151 and sent all their M38A1's to the local DRMO's where the USMC picked most of them up, ran them thru their Barstow depot and equipped them as standard USMC A1's. Limited slip diff's, undercoated etc. This included a new dash lower left corner plate ID'g the responsible agency for repair as the USMC. The only way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that an A1 was issued to the USMC or acquired by the USMC as a transfer unit are the dash plates or a copy of the surplus SF Form 93 showing USMC as previous owner.
Yes, the service bulletin for field installation of those lifting eyes was not done on all USMC jeeps.
In today's world these half century ago MV's released from their armed forces to the DRMO's for public sale are now ID'd by after market dash plates and other look alike methods to convince all buyers they are what they were not. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:11 pm Post subject: New Photos
Hi Wes,
Yes, the military do some things, that's for sure. I posted some photos on my profile page will put up more when I can. Please let me know what you think. I believe it's a USMC machine. Never saw that USN plate on the glove box on anyone else's Jeep have you.? It's mostly complete.
All the best
Keith
Yes Sir,
I believe it's the real deal and if not mistaken, fairly rare machine now. It's still got the USMC Dark Green OD version interior and engine compartment will get more pics when I can.[/url]
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 2005 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 1:58 pm Post subject:
Are you going to take the paint off the top half of your Navy data plate to see what it says? _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:08 pm Post subject: Navy Data Plate
Hi Ron,
Yes I eventually plan on gently trying to take paint off of the data plate. However I believe that’s the original USMC Paint inside vehicle and engine compartment. The outside looks like a old civilian re-paint. So not worried about that patina……lol….makes me wonder why the depot painted and just left the two blocks clear. Unless there’s nothing there. Will keep all posted. I have never seen a Navy data plate like that before anywhere. Has anyone else?
All the best
Keith
Those service property tags were common back then. Only unknown is when the USN had the opportunity to install it. Could have been when the Army first delivered it to the Navy/USMC supply system or it may have been years later if the Marines turned it into the Navy for surplus disposal thru DRMO.
I still have the USAF property tag that came on my M38:
Also have an NOS USMC data plate set issued from their supply system in the late 50's.
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 2005 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:18 pm Post subject:
Hi Keith,
I could be wrong, but the bottom half of the Navy data plate as shown in your photo album looks very much like a Navy Radio Set data plate (not a "property tag").
You can find a few similar examples by searching this forum and the interweb.
If you swipe some Dot3 brake fluid over the top half that's covered in paint and give it a day or two to soak, you might see the rest of it and know for sure.
I was looking closer at my front bumper and it looks like it's not made from C-channel.
It looks formed, stamped, and cut from plate steel. Doesn't look anything like the profile of structural C-channel.
Nobody knows for sure, but I'm pretty sure a motor pool wouldn't fabricate a bumper from C-channel when they could requisition a replacement from supply stock that would bolt right on.
It's your jeep so do what makes you happy.
Is your objective to restore it as a M38A1 --- or something else? _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
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This is the USMC bulletin for the mod.
This is what's in the USMC kit.
Here's regular M38A1 vs USMC configured M38A1
