Joined: Jun 01, 2023 Posts: 8 Location: Burkburnett, TX
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:47 pm Post subject: M38 Project
So I’m new here, so forgive me as I learn the rules of the road. I’ve had several newer Jeeps and for the last year or so a buddy has been asking me to come get one out of his back field. I finally relented and went and looked. It was in pretty rough shape but definitely fixable. I restore old cars for a living, so I thought I would tackle it as something about it spoke to me..
It took me a while to even figure out what it was. It was metallic gold, had a CJ2A windshield, a roll cage that appeared to have done its job at least once. All the footman loops, handles, guards etc were removed and filled with bondo and painted over. And the lower pioneer tool cutouts were partially bondo’d over. At some point in time a SBC was put iin.
As of now I’ve already removed the tub to do a little cleaning and investigation. Wes I’ll send the survey after this weekend as I get the driveline components clean to get the numbers. I’m pretty sure the SN is 52843. The dash plates were not present as there is what I assume is part of a heater. It’s a box deal over the round hole in the dash. I’m going to request a photo album. However the tub plate was there but very rough. I used several techniques and have some numbers readable. I thought that was the end. But on the left frame rail a matching number has been stamped that the numbers can be read. There is also several other numbers that have been engraved but I can’t quite make them out. I’m currently blueing the steel to see if I can pull them out better….
I have a couple of questions to get started. I have ordered the manuals and if anyone knows where I can pick up the updated edition of Ryan’s book please let me know. I can’t confirm the few I see online are the new one… and if really like it for rhe AF updates.
I’m very confident it is an Air Force Jeep or at least served at some point in time as one. Under the gold is it blue. I also am prior AF and live near a base and the jeep was said to come from the area of another AF base. It is my understanding that they never came blue from the factory?…. Is that correct? I’m asking because it is gold, blue, red oxide and metal. Even under the cowl and in nooks and crannies in hard to reach areas….
I’ve searched this so forgive me if I missed something. I want to save as much of the original metal as I can. The firewall has been hacked out in the center for the V8. Will a CJ3A replacement firewall work if I use only the center recessed area and section that in? I see MD Juan makes one, but not getting any good vibes on those parts?
This is probably a stupid question(s) so please don’t laugh. But I am confused even after looking. If it had a heater. Would it have an Arctic top. Were those factory options or add ons and is there any signs of what it would have had in that arena. Or is this whole subject irrelevant and insignificant ultimately anyway?…. Again I really hope that don’t bring me flak. A point in where to find that stuff would be great…
I know this is long so lastly, my biggest fear and need on the entire jeep is I need the front crossmember and frame side engine stands to repair the jacked up engine swap. I’ve called and emailed a few places with no luck. Any leads on this type of stuff or short of finding a junk frame is this a deal breaker. I have the skills, facilities and equipment and I really wanna try to do it nice.
I’m sure I’ll have lots of other questions and I hope this wasn’t too long or stupid questiony, I only wish other genres of car restorations had this type of support and resources.
I take it this is installment one for the start of your historical aspects of your restoration. This is our page for ongoing project announcements for progress and general information. Try to funnel your individual technical questions to our Technical Board and your items needed questions to our Wanted Board. Let me see if I can help with this original batch of questions:
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The dash plates were not present as there is what I assume is part of a heater. It’s a box deal over the round hole in the dash. I’m going to request a photo album.
My photo album is the second one in Members Albums Page, be sure to peruse it early on. I have a thousand detailed photos there that answer many. many questions. On page 2 of my album you will find "TB's and MWO's" These are the equivalent to manufacturer's service bulletins, letters and USAF TCTO's. Heater kits were field installed items and you'll find their installation instructions in these pubs. http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=album124&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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if anyone knows where I can pick up the updated edition of Ryan’s book please let me know. I can’t confirm the few I see online are the new one… and if really like it for the AF updates.
It's best to go straight to the horse's mouth on this topic. Ryan Miller has his email listed in his posts.
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It is my understanding that they never came blue from the factory?…. Is that correct? I’m asking because it is gold, blue, red oxide and metal. Even under the cowl and in nooks and crannies in hard to reach areas….
This is an easy one. The available history tells us the Army was the primary procurement venue for all tactical wheeled vehicles from 1948 thru 1953/4. All the M38's endured OD2430 at the Willys factory since they were built September 1950 thru June 1952. There are several folks that swear they have solid evidence their m38's came new from Willys with Strata Blue on them. Yet having kept this web site and it's predecessor Yahoo site alive for over 27 years I have yet to see convincing evidence. The only tidbits of info I have run across over those years is the USAF and Navy started around 1952 pressuring the DOD for a bigger say in the preparation of the vehicles the Army was procuring for them. By 1954 the individual services were finally issuing their own procurement contracts with Willys.
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Will a CJ3A replacement firewall work if I use only the center recessed area and section that in?
It will to a degree. There will be different holes for wiring and cables but if you study each carefully you can make one work except for the large floor removable panels for the bell housing and tranny.
5 -
Quote:
If it had a heater. Would it have an Arctic top. Were those factory options or add ons and is there any signs of what it would have had in that arena. Or is this whole subject irrelevant and insignificant ultimately anyway?
No, heaters were field installed without ever seeing an arctic top. The question above refers you to the right place to read up. There were a gas fired personnel heater kit, a hot water type personnel heater kit and a Powerplant Heater Kit. The Arctic Top installation also had a TB for it's installation. Kits were often designed by Willys/Kaiser but they were not factory installed on production line jeeps.
Hope this get's you started.
You also mention ordering manuals, I hope you are aware that every manual you could need for your M38 is loaded in PDF format on our Downloads page and are free! _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Jun 01, 2023 Posts: 8 Location: Burkburnett, TX
Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:18 am Post subject:
Thank you sir!
Yes I would like to do an accurate restoration unless I run into any major hurdles early on. So far I think I can, just don’t tell my wife how much I’m spending on eBay….lol.
Holy cow, I don’t know how I missed your photo section. I can already see questions I’ll have answered by a quick look through there. The AF stuff is where I’ve been lacking in finding answers to. So hopefully this will all help!
Thanks again for the point in the right directions and information. I’ll reach out to Ryan and I’ll make sure to post in the appropriate areas. And yes. I saw the manuals and such and plan on utilizing the resources here for sure. As my eyes are not as young as they used to be. I find the paper copy helpful and I figured the larger number of pages easier to purchase as not to wear my little printer out! _________________ Mike W
52 M38
55 Willys Sedan Delivery
71 international Travelall
35 Ford 1.5 Ton
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 2005 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:19 pm Post subject:
Hi Mike,
I also like the paper manuals and make lots of notes in the margins.
(You'll discover more than a few errors and typos in them, but can't do a restoration or maintenance without them)
They also usually have the M38 Reference Guide (might have to call and ask to see if it's the latest edition).
I got a copy late last year so I know it's available.
Good luck, and post some photo's for us.
You came to the right forum! _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
Joined: Jun 01, 2023 Posts: 8 Location: Burkburnett, TX
Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:39 pm Post subject:
Thanks Ron! The notes idea was my though as well. I usually keep binders with all that stuff in it.
I was able to get with Ryan and get the book ordered from Peter Debella, look forward to that!
Like I said, it’s pretty rough but here it is in the field before dragging it home. I hope I do the photos correctly.
After looking at the materials for the heaters suggested, I think it had the gas heater? There is the piece on the dash for the defroster and on the drivers side of the cowl there were mounting holes covered up that I think is for the main unit?…
And here is the blue that is over the tub.
Got the grille, hood, fenders and tub off in preparation for the SBC removal , hopefully the weather holds out tomorrow so I can get that done. Found out the transplant is a 283 out of a 58 impala so hopefully I can off that somewhere for a few dollars and buy more parts…. I hope to be able to clean a little more to get the numbers off the driveline to complete the survey as well.
_________________ Mike W
52 M38
55 Willys Sedan Delivery
71 international Travelall
35 Ford 1.5 Ton
Joined: Jun 01, 2023 Posts: 8 Location: Burkburnett, TX
Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2023 8:57 am Post subject:
Yeah, the main floor pan is definitely trash. I have reached out to Brent Mullins for the help on the crossmember, but I haven’t heard anything back as of yet. I’ll ask about that as well! My original intentions were to use the individually available parts to rebuild the pan. I ordered a replacement cowl to patch the battery box area as it has been cut off to make smooth. I think I’ll order the CJ3A firewall as previously discussed and try to section in the center area. _________________ Mike W
52 M38
55 Willys Sedan Delivery
71 international Travelall
35 Ford 1.5 Ton
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3460 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2023 9:58 am Post subject:
Mike,
Have a look at my photo album and see what I did to repair my firewall in front of the battery box. With corrosion from the battery, and Bubba cutting a hole for a chrome air cleaner in the battery box location, it was a challenge.
See if you can get an M38 firewall. There’s a lot going on there that’s not on a CJ firewall.
You won’t have all the holes, attachment points and welded in studs on the civvy version.
My M38 had been modified with a Chevy V8 and did the exact suggested fix and found a good M38 cowl section and cut the center and left center part of the firewall out and welded in the used replacement.
Before
After
I did this side of the dash because it had been butchered to accommodate a tilt steering wheel. Before!
Joined: Jun 01, 2023 Posts: 8 Location: Burkburnett, TX
Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2023 8:18 pm Post subject:
Thank you guys for the better insight on the firewall. I’ll definitely seek out a used one first.
I did get the Chevy motor out today. Was trying to get the diffs and trans/transfer case out but the wind and hail moved in and ran out of room inside trying to hover everything out of the weather.
I guess I’m either going to have to get the steamer out or go ahead and blast some of the stuff to get the rest of the numbers/dates off of them. This has to be the hardest, thickest caked on grease if seen in some areas. _________________ Mike W
52 M38
55 Willys Sedan Delivery
71 international Travelall
35 Ford 1.5 Ton
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 2005 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2023 6:20 am Post subject:
Hi Mike,
Paragraph 180 on page 175 of the Army manual TM9-1804B Power Train, Body, and Frame has a diagram and dimensions to check the frame for straightness.
At the factory, Willys didn't stamp the M38 frame with serial number or date.
Willys did stamp an "M" (for "Military") into several reinforcing plates on the frame.
The M locations and the other unique M38 frame identifying characteristics are described in the M38 Reference Guide.
It'll be interesting to see photos of any serial number or date you find stamped on the frame.
I think the hardest part to find is going to be the round front cross member.
Whoever installed the SBC maybe also moved the transmission cross member?
Good luck! _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 2005 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2023 11:37 am Post subject:
Yes, I see it.
I was wondering if it's still in the original factory location. _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
It sure looks like it is. If not it is awful darn close! It lines up nice with those two tub mount brackets as shown below.
Most likely the reason for chopping out the high mounted crossmember tube and using the lower flat fabricated crossmember was to allow the Chevy oil pan enough clearance so the rear engine mount did not have to be moved. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
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