Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject: U.S.M.C. M-38?
Hi! I've got an M-38 and am having my usual luck. I always get the weird stuff.
Here goes: this jeep was given to a rural school system I think. It was painted what I believe to be Willys deep forest green metallic. The paint job was done first class-it's inside the glove box, all over the seats, under the hood and up under the cowl. When I sanded through the green to find hood numbers they were yellow . All stencils I have uncovered so far are yellow. The hood number was US 175462. It has green undercoating. However, it was not painted Marine Corp. green. It's o.d., 2 coats, over red oxide primer. The 2nd coat of o.d. is slightly browner than the first. It has an arctic cab windshield. It alone is Marine green. It also has red on it front of the passenger's seat.The front bumper has no green -it's white over black.
NOW THE KICKER- on the right side of the hood underside are large white vinyl letters OVER the Willys Green as follows US ARMY
2GO 446
FIGURE THAT OUT!
A lot of equipment changed hands during it's lifetime. It is possible your M38 was US Army and then USMC. You will probably be scratching your head for years to come! _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
I thought perhaps the Army was the mustering -out center for equipment, but surely the Navy had something. The thing seems to have a grey steering wheel. I remember when I worked in a warehouse we had items not available to our customers for years still on the shelves because no one could order them. Every year we counted them, but nothing was ever done. Think some quartermaster tired of counting 1944-45 navy wheels said "put them on those #$^%! Marine jeeps till we use them up or were the green wheels painted over grey?
The DRMO (Defense Re-utilization and Marketing Office) was the mustering out organization for all the services. Equipment declared surplus to a unit's needs was turned over to the nearest DRMO facility (they were on Army Posts, Air Force Bases, Navy bases, Coast Guard Stations and Marine Corp bases). The DRMO would catalog the equipment and post it's availability to all the Armed Forces for a short while. If no takers it was then catalog and listed for all Governmental Agencies for a short while. If still no takers it was presented for public auction. And finally if no takers it was sold as salvage.
Without some additional unit marking info your jeep may never reveal it's full history. Color alone is not a good guide. Hood numbers usually were preceded by USA, US Army for the Army, USAF for the Air Force, USN for the Navy, USMC for the Marines and USCG for the Coast Guard. Your US only marking is very odd and leads me to believe the jeep may have been repainted and that hood marking used by an early civilian restorer. I am assuming here that both the "US" and the "175XXX" are in the same layer of paint and adjacent to each other per your post. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
The grey steering wheel sounds like an od green steering wheel that has had a lot of UV exposure. Undercoating usually is a USMC feature.
The 175462 sounds correct for a M38 USMC jeep. But the US is not. The very few M38 USMC jeeps I have seen had Arctic Tops too and numbered in the USMC 17xxxx range. The windshield frame was covered with brass data plates. An interesting find. Not an expert but I think these jeeps are pretty rare.
The hood numbers might have been painted several times by the Marines with some overlap erasing the MC from the USMC while uncovering the hood numbers. So in essence you are actually seeing 2 or more sets of the same hood numbers, one on top of the other, slightly eschew, from different periods of use. I have had this happen.
Your vehicle sounds like it had a very long life in the services and beyond.
Thanks, guys, for all the help. Time to do more sanding! This jeep has never been restored but it could have other parts added over time. My lack of finding od on the front bumper (so far) caused me to contemplate a front collision, but more research is necessary. It is really straight and unmolested. The engine is RMC 101157 and it's silver. Is this correct for some or a civvy re-build paint-job? It has the cuno filter.
The jeep shows 63,000 miles on it, and that's a lot in low-low. However,
it's known civilian life was easy and well-cared for. I know some of it's history and people who knew the previous owner well.
Where else would I find USMC numbers on it? Was there an I D number on the frame as well?
USMC 175462 would be found on both sides of the hood. Even today it is still just 6 numbers last time I saw a new vehicle.
The left rear bumperette has USMC. The right rear bumperette has 175462. And thats it. The 175462 is really jammed together to make it fit.
Sometimes the USMC 175462 would be along the bottom edge of the hood and sometimes more on the rounded over area on the hood like Army vehicles. The suggested placement is the hood bottom edge.
For the right side the USMC would be before the cutout and the 175462 after the cutout.
For the bottom edge lettering/numbers the stencil size is 3". For the rounded over area stencil size is 2" based on the vehicles I have seen with 3" lettering and numbers on the bumperettes for both stencil hood sizes.
Sometimes TAC insignias are found but that generally is later vehicles I think.
The stencil paint is a chrome yellow color that has to be custom blended from the Federal Standard color list. It does not exist as an off the shelf color. Same for USMC Green. Single stage old time automotive paints were used not any of the CARC paints. Any professional autobody paint shop can mix the paint for you with the Federal number if this type of automobile paint is still allowed in your area.
These are standard placements but you might have something with original nonstandard markings too (like tire pressure or bellhousing plug, etc.) especially since it appears your vehicle was used for a long time.
The color of rebuilt USMC jeep engines that I have seen, have been spray painted in bright red over everything including hoses, belts, wires, accessories, etc. It could be the same red color used by the Marines in graphics but I have never explored this idea. Silver sounds like a later paint job.
Last edited by BullRun on Thu May 20, 2010 9:08 am; edited 3 times in total
Willys did not match engine serials to chassis serials on any of the universal jeeps (MA, MB, MC [M38], MD [M38A1], MD-A [M170}, CJ-2, CJ-2A, CJ-3A, DJ-3A, CJV35, CJ-3B, CJ-5, CJ-6, DJ-5 and DJ-6.
RMCXXXXXX engine serials are brand new factory replacement M38 engines that were produced under the contract system under which the jeeps were procured. In the field military rebuilds added a rebuild plate on the left side of the engine with the original serial, facility, and OS/US's.
US Military jeep engines were delivered in OD. Civvy were delivered black.
The R was also added to the prefixes of many of the civilian jeep line engines which were supplied as new spare engines from Willys and Kaiser.
IE 4LRXXXXX would have been a brand new factory produced generic L134 replacement engine.
In 1948 with the opening of the Defense Dept which replaced the War Dept and the Bureau of Naval Affairs started the new M series vehicle system and procurement of all tactical wheeled vehicles was tasked by DOD to the US Army Ordinance Command.
All M38's were produced on US Army Ordinance procurement contracts and were delivered in 2430 OD. The Marines, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard requested their M38 needs from the Army and new units shipped to them were usually repainted by that service. I say usually because we have many period photos of the M38's being used by the different services but still in 2430 OD.
Early in M38A1 production came the switch to each service specifying their color and by the late 50's the individual services had started issuing their own procurement contracts. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Jun 26, 2009 Posts: 9 Location: Lake Mathews, Southern Calif.
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:39 am Post subject:
Good day KZ.
I have two USMC M38's to place USMC hood numbers on. My dad's jeep was delivered on 8 - 51 (serial 300XX) and my M38 had a DOD of 5 - 51 (serial 209XX). His has Marine Corps. data plates.
What is the month, year and the first 3 numbers of the serial on your data plate please?
I have narrowed down the Army numbers by month and year for these (much of the credit to this website) but am researching the month and year of sequence of the USMC.
I still haven't sanded down the jeeps yet because of working 15 hours a day, 7 days a week but will take photos when I do. I hope to find other markings such as the lozenge, etc. and get them to Wes K here for his data info.
Hopefully I can track the history of these jeeps. Perhaps they were of the few that actually were dropped over Korea. Maybe they were kept stateside or went to Germany, Japan, Guam. etc.
I keep reading that the records were not kept, etc. but would still like to search.
Thank you,
Rich Lovan _________________ Rich
M38 1951 serial # MC 20965, Date of Delivery 5 - 51.
================
Also restoring Dad's and Brother's M38 1951 serial # MC 300XX, Date of Delivery 8 - 51 to Marine Corps (on Data Plate) that dad bought in 1962.
Last edited by RchLovn on Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Jun 26, 2009 Posts: 9 Location: Lake Mathews, Southern Calif.
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:45 pm Post subject:
Does anyone else have the MC serial (first 3 numbers if not comfortable giving the entire number), date of delivery WITH ORIGINAL USMC hood numbers?
USMC Lozenge (diamond), etc?
I need info on USMC M38's and not WWII MB's unless they had the same placements, types, etc.
Wes K needs them too as well as all M38's for data info.
Thank you. _________________ Rich
M38 1951 serial # MC 20965, Date of Delivery 5 - 51.
================
Also restoring Dad's and Brother's M38 1951 serial # MC 300XX, Date of Delivery 8 - 51 to Marine Corps (on Data Plate) that dad bought in 1962.
KZ here- My m-38 is mc29686, AJP says it was delivered August 1951 ( from a book). No data plates remain, just holes showing they had no backing plate. The serial number plate was in place. I have the parts book and nearly everything is per serial number except light sw. My ign sw. was 4- wire. I still haven't sanded much more, but confirmed Bullrun's theory of overlapping stencils. The originals were on hood vertical sides and USMC 175462. Over them were the 2 row USMC
175462 ( CAN'T REPRODUCE HERE)
My jeep was given ( we believe) to a rural school system ( HOW I DO NOT KNOW) and was assigned to the basketball coach . He loved it so much he kept it when he retired. It was COMPLETELY painted in a dark green metallic I believe to be Willys deep forest green, even under the cowl, inside the glove box, tool box and seat frames. (when/ by what outfit I don't know) My jeep was always 2430 as near as I can tell except for the arctic cab windshield. Why is there red paint in front of the passenger's seat on the inside of the windshield? I don't have the cab, It's probably still in someone's barn.
That book is the M38 Restoration Guide published by none other than our very own web site co-owner Ryan Miller. It is available for sale to anyone interested in it.
Joined: Jun 26, 2009 Posts: 9 Location: Lake Mathews, Southern Calif.
Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:07 am Post subject:
Thank you very much KZ and WesK...
This is great...narrowing things down.
Of the seems like thousands of jeep photos and info, those for sale, reading hundreds of pages of actual war memories from veterans, etc. I am narrowing down Divisions, Regiments, Battalions and Companies and the battles that they were in and the soldier's names, and who earned what medal, etc.
Since the M38's didn't get to Korea until Aug. 1952 I believe that I had read, the MB's were the only jeeps out there (obviously) until then.
So, any battles that they may have been involved in had to be after that date.
I was focusing on the 1st Marine Division, 7th Regiment, 3rd Battalion, Co. H and dedicating the jeep to Medal of Honor earner 2nd LT George Herman O'Brien, Jr., who in Korea on 27 October 1952 as a Rifle Platoon Commander of Company H, lead his men while wounded and taking out the enemy in hand to hand combat.
This, of course if I sand down the entire jeep and don't find another unit. I do want to keep it original.
I'm placing the horizontal yellow lozenge logo of the 1st Marines under the hinge/bolts of the window where I had seen others of the same Division in some Korean War photos.
<73?> I don't know what number is in place of the H though. It would seem like it would be an "8" for the order in the alphabet but had seen "Co. C" as "4" and just on another site they had written that the "H" was a "4" which doesn't make sense so if anyone knows what numbers represent the Company letters, please let me know...especially what number represents Co. H of the above.
KZ, your serial and USMC number helps a great deal. As we all know, the 2 is the weight/class and the rest is the sequence of jeeps leaving the factory(and how they decided what row to stencil first at the time). I have narrowed down numbers with a formula going by early and late serials to what existing hood numbers I match to them and get a semi-accurate number with only about 70 jeeps off. If I don't find any numbers on my jeep I'm placing USMC 173965 (the last 3 digits of my MC serial number because as WesK said, "We cannot confuse future historians with made-up numbers so if you don't have original numbers, use part of your serial number so it will be obvious to researchers that it was not an original number") on the hood and the lozenge where previously mentioned under the window bolts and also the lozenge on the left bumperette (even though 90% of them had USMC and had also seen a photo of the lozenge in place of the USMC on the hood) and the number on the right. As I narrow it further, I’ll revise the number.
Thank you again,
Rich Lovan _________________ Rich
M38 1951 serial # MC 20965, Date of Delivery 5 - 51.
================
Also restoring Dad's and Brother's M38 1951 serial # MC 300XX, Date of Delivery 8 - 51 to Marine Corps (on Data Plate) that dad bought in 1962.
Last edited by RchLovn on Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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