Joined: May 23, 2013 Posts: 23 Location: Florida, Lakeland
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:57 pm Post subject:
Hi everyone. Quick update. I worked on the timing this morning. What I found was a little discouraging. The break point was set at around .032. I corrected it to .020. That adjustment itself also brought the timing almost to right where it needed to be (5 btdc).
I attempted to check the coil ohms. I pulled out the old electric tester and it was useless. I couldn't get it to give a consistent reading, touching it's own tips together. I replaced the batteries, same thing. I guess I'll be replacing that, too.
Unfortunately, when I checked centrifical advance on the rotor, I found more bad news. The rotor does move around 10 degrees, but it stays whereever it is put. There is no spring tension to it.
Now I need to take the distributor apart and see what's going on in there.
Thanks go out to John. I appreciate the help over the phone.
Joined: May 23, 2013 Posts: 23 Location: Florida, Lakeland
Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:22 pm Post subject:
I opened the distributor today, dropped a little lubricant, was able to check where it actually is "springing" back, though not as responsive as I had expected.
It felt as though it had no tension for the first third or half of the maximum rotation, then the springs began to pull. Does the movement appear normal/acceptable tolerances, or should it be investigated further?
I was also able to ohm test the ignition coil. I checked it both cold and very hot. I found no noticable differance.
Also, I was able to begin checking the valves. I got everything opened and was able to adjust the intake valves before I ran out of time (night shift today).
Before adjusting the intake valves, I was unable to slide in even the thinnest gauge. It honestly felt like they were "set" to 0.000
Tomorrow I will adjust the exhaust valves.
Does anyone know what symptoms occur from an engine with valves set that tight?
She is not springing back hard enough or fast enough. This could be excessive friction or weak springs. You can try a good cleaning and flushing with brake cleaner. If that doesn't improve the action then dis-assembly of the plate and cleaning and inspection the weights and springs is in order.
The sticking open intakes result in a loss of power. And sometimes cross ignition of another cylinder at the wrong time. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: May 23, 2013 Posts: 23 Location: Florida, Lakeland
Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject:
I finished adjusted the valves, doubled checked them all again, and tacked everying back together.
I opened up the distributor again. I can fairly confidently say the weight springs are shot. I sprayed down and cleaned it so everything is moving freely, and the springs are just not giving any tension for the first few degrees of movement. In addition, it feels to me (uneducated diagnosis) that everything about it is just "loose" or worn. There is wiggle and shimmy room up and down, left and right.
I put it all back together, readjusted the point gap, and put the timing light to it as I accelerated the engine. I could see that there was a timing advance going on, but noticed that it jumped around a bit, especially at lower RPMs. I measured a 6 degree total advance from idle to revving it pretty good. I had a devil of a time getting the distributor bolts loose enough to move the distributor, while tight enough to hold itself in place.
I then drove her back home and found that she still stutters through certain points in acceleration, and that she begins to stutter and lose power at higher RPMs consistently when she is hot. I would guess I might have 15 to 20 minutes of engine run time before she loses power and I have to stop and let her cool down. She also does not want to start right away once she is warmed up and has sat for just a few minutes.
I'm not sure what all she may need, but I do know she definately needs some work on her distributor, so that's whats next. If anyone recognizes anything else specific based on those symptoms, please let me know, and thanks again for everyone's help.
You really should give that powerplant a complete physical before continuing on with parts rebuilding.
1-Compression test. & leak down check if the need is indicated.
2-Coolant temp check using a remote gauge and flow check.
3-Fuel system checkout to include a fuel pump flow and pressure test. And a close inspection of the carb diaphragms and float level setting.
4-Get those hot and cold OHM readings on that coil soon! _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
2: I checked the coolant temp with my mechanic. He used a tool (I'm unsure of the name) where he pointed it at the thermostat housing housing. It remained within 5 degrees of 165.
3: I don't know how to do anything on step three, but I will learn!
4: I did this test using an analog ohm meter (will upgrade to digital soon). I saw almost no differance at all from refridgerated cold (yes, in the fridge), to room temperature, to heat-gun-hot.
I am still at a loss for a good source for weight springs. Chrisk posted from the Netherlands that he had some, but so far no response to a PM. I also read mention of a post sometime this year, concerning the inavailability of springs, and discussing available alternatives. I searched for that discussion for about two hours and have found nothing
Joined: May 23, 2013 Posts: 23 Location: Florida, Lakeland
Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:20 pm Post subject: update
wesk wrote:
You really should give that powerplant a complete physical before continuing on with parts rebuilding.
1-Compression test. & leak down check if the need is indicated.
2-Coolant temp check using a remote gauge and flow check.
3-Fuel system checkout to include a fuel pump flow and pressure test. And a close inspection of the carb diaphragms and float level setting.
4-Get those hot and cold OHM readings on that coil soon!
Compression Test:
I bought a compression tester and found the following:
#1 @ 128; #2 @ 128; #3 @ 128; #4 @129
All cylinders appeared similar on the test. I checked the gap on each plug as I went. They were all at or very near .030.
Coolant temp check. Using an IR tester, it maintained about 160-165. I don't know how a flow test is done.
I bought a vacuum and fuel pressure gauge, but I ran out of time before I could research where and how to test it. I also don't know how to do a fuel pump flow test. I checked the float level. When holding the air horn upside down, the float, resting on its own weight and closing the valve, the lowest part of the float was around 7/16th inch. No where near 9/64.
I don't yet know how to check the diaphragms.
Ignition coil.
I bought a digital multi-meter and ohm checked the coil. I'm wondering if my coil is terrible, something is wrong with my multi-meter, or if I am using it wrong. The meter maxes out at 40,000 ohms. Both hot and cold, the coil read over 40,000 ohm on the secondary test (from the center contact, to the outer casing metal.
I'm thinking of buying a US made coil and putting that in. I'm thinking it wouldn't be bad to have a spare, even if that isn't the issue.
I also made the radio noise filter eliminator (a wire butt connected and soldered to a properly cut condenser). It seems to have improved the engine running rough when hot, but only somewhat.
Currently, she is still having trouble starting when hot, and still hesitates during acceleration, particularly when hot.
I'm starting to see these symptoms less of the nature "Something is broke and needs replaced," and more along the lines of, "Anything that could be worn or mis-adjusted, probably is." I am actually really looking forward to learning to each component, though I am fairly intimidated by it all.
1-Compression test. & leak down check if the need is indicated. (Thats good readings)
2-Coolant temp check using a remote gauge and flow check. (That checks good.)( A flow test is leaving the cap off, starting the engine and watch for the flow to start across the top of the radiator when the thermostat starts to open. You also watch for bubbles in the coolant and if you see them then accelerate the throttle and see if they increase.)
3-Fuel system checkout to include a fuel pump flow and pressure test. And a close inspection of the carb diaphragms and float level setting. (you should be using the troubleshooting pages in your jeeps manual where they show the checks being done and the test equipment's instructions.)
4-Get those hot and cold OHM readings on that coil soon!(40M is high but then I do not have figures for those Turkish made coils. What was the primary resistance?)
You should have none of your symptoms with the timing set to the original 5 Deg BTDC mark if all is well withing the engine. The greater advance figure is for an otherwise healthy engine that you wish to get a slight increase in performance from. Fix the sickness before you ask it to perform better than stock. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: May 23, 2013 Posts: 23 Location: Florida, Lakeland
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:37 pm Post subject:
Wes, the cold and hot primary readings were 11.8 and 13.43 ohm.
Also, I forgot to mention something I did. When the engine was hot and would not start, I took out the #1 spark plug, then, with the plug threaded into the wire, I pressed the plug against the engine (the exhaust manifold bolt, specifically) and had someone try to start the jeep. There was no spark whatsoever on the plug.
I didn't have a chance to do any work or tests on the jeep today.
Looks like both resistance values are way out of line. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: May 23, 2013 Posts: 23 Location: Florida, Lakeland
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:49 pm Post subject:
I did notice that the ohm reading seemed to be unreasonably high, compared with the 0.5 - 1.0 it is supposed to be. Does 11 - 13 ohms seem to be what a coil reads when it goes bad, or when it is being read incorrectly?
And, is there any reason a shielded plug wouldn't spark in such a test, or would that tend to mean something is wrong with the ignition system?
The only way I can tell if you are taking your ohm readings correctly is to be standing alongside you when you take them. That is not an option so I think it is best at this point for you to seek out an automotive electrician and have them stand beside you while you take your readings.
"Out of tolerance" means bad coil by the way.
A shielded plug is already grounded through the shield of the cable to the distributor and engine block. If none of the 4 plugs spark when you crank the engine with the ignition switch on then the distributor is the culprit. Your ohm readings, if correct, indicate the coil is bad. However if only one plug does not fire then there may also be other problems with the distributor. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: May 23, 2013 Posts: 23 Location: Florida, Lakeland
Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:36 pm Post subject:
I don't have much to update. I'm waiting for a new coil to come in and compare numbers, and of course performance, with what I currently have.
I did a little more on the spark plug check. The plugs act similarly across the cylinders. When cold, the plugs give a rather weak looking yellow spark. When too hot, they do not spark.
I saw that the ground cable to frame, and ground straps from engine to frame connections were pretty rough. Each was connected to and from rust or paint, so I cleaned them all up and put them all back together. I didn't expect it would solve the power issue, but I figured it couldn't hurt to have a better ground connection. I took her out for a test afterwards anyways -- I can always hope, right?
I made it a mile or two down the road and she started to lose power on acceleration just the same. No luck this time. _________________ Robert B.
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