Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:06 pm Post subject: 1956 M38A1 - Introduction & General Feedback Requested
Hey everyone!
A bit about myself - I'm in my early 30's and residing in a suburb Chicago, and last year I acquired a 1956 M38A1 from Texas and had it shipped across the country. That is Penny in the picture, by the way.
I was originally enamored by the older military jeeps as a kid, when I watched my neighbor rebuild one from the ground up, then drive around town with his golden retriever in the back. The thought of having that experience myself was always imprinted, so I bought this one without knowing much of anything about condition, originality, pricing, difference in models, etc...
I went off of looks, and what seemed to accommodate to my general purpose. But now that I've owned the vehicle for a little over a year, I was hoping for some general feedback. I've found myself dumping more and more money into the vehicle, hoping to restore bits of it, and I am becoming a bit consumed and admittedly obsessed. I'm not interested in doing a frame off restoration, or rather I don't have the know-how, but perhaps that is what would satiate my cravings.
When Googling '1956 M38A1', this particular vehicle pops up more than a few times, so I'm sure some of you have seen it in past ads.
If you wouldn't mind sharing your opinion, it'd be so very much appreciated.
Is it worth sinking a bunch of time into, and honing new skills (welding, mechanical work, fabrication, etc)? Do I consider restoring the body, though keeping its mechanical guts? What could I do cosmetically to at least get it closer to its original aesthetics, and looking a bit more maintained? The last sentence being the most important to me.
As far as I can tell, it's a ~1962 Ford 260 V8 and it was converted to a 12V. The body itself has 4 layers of paint in most spots - Original OD, Yellow, Red, then the newest iteration of the its OD that has some patina, scrapes, scratches, and the usual.
The gas pedal is off place, due to where the throttle cable feeds. The brake pedal isn't original, and the master cylinder isn't located where it should be to even install an original pedal. The gas tank doesn't have the 'feeder cup' on the side of the body, and I can't put one in either, because someone re-welded the pour spout where the cap screws into. These are all things that bother me.
The exhaust is off of a Ford (like the engine), and I wanted to consider putting an 'original' muffler / exhaust on, leading to the rear of the vehicle. Someone also placed fiberglass on the driver and passenger side floorboards. I'm assuming to help protect against some heat from the muffler, that rests right underneath the passenger side. It doesn't look like the metal has decayed at all, so it wouldn't be for that.
The radiator is original, and has been spot welded to ward off leaks... But, it leaks... A lot. It does surprisingly do a well enough job at keeping the engine cool, even in the Chicago summers.
My thoughts are, fix the items I'm most concerned about, clean up the engine (do I do a complete tear down and repaint / clean it as I go?), repaint the interior, fix the exhaust to feed out the back as it should, then remove the fiber glass?
Do I look into having it professionally restored?
Again, I'm just fishing for opinions and general feedback. I love this vehicle, and don't regret the purchase one iota, but being extremely anally retentive, I tend to obsess on the imperfections.
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:49 pm Post subject:
Justin,
Welcome!
Your questions are common to nearly every new MV owner.
From five feet away and ignoring the side exhaust no one
wound know the four banger isn’t in there.
You are way ahead of many of us as it appears to be a
daily driver!
Wes will chime in with many words of wisdom but the bottom
line is you have to decide the level of restoration and/or
repair you are willing to tackle and how much you want to spend.
Just remember with these old jeeps the old adage of it being about
the journey rings true. Before it’s over you will have acquired numerous
new talents and a garage full of new tools!
Joined: Mar 21, 2017 Posts: 71 Location: Peoria, AZ
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:59 pm Post subject:
Needs a few more horns.....just kidding! Looks great for a quick glance but agree that side exhaust has to go quickly. Maybe canvas seat covers? _________________ Lee Long
Peoria, AZ
1953 M38A1 USMC
I've found myself dumping more and more money into the vehicle, hoping to restore bits of it, and I am becoming a bit consumed and admittedly obsessed. I'm not interested in doing a frame off restoration, or rather I don't have the know-how, but perhaps that is what would satiate my cravings.
This is a choice only you can make. The more consumed or obsessed you become the more likely that anything less than a complete frame off with superb detail will not make you happy. So the first order of business is for you to step back and take a long hard look at yourself and the jeep and make a solid decision on where you want both to be in say 2 years. Then estimate the cost in both dollars and your personal time to get to that point. I have seen many folks over the years realize that having already started enjoying the use of the jeep one does not want to park it fro a complete resto. If you arrive at this conclusion then it's time to look for another jeep closer to stock condition and restore it at your leisure while you continue to enjoy the use of your driver.
Quote:
Is it worth sinking a bunch of time into, and honing new skills (welding, mechanical work, fabrication, etc)? Do I consider restoring the body, though keeping its mechanical guts? What could I do cosmetically to at least get it closer to its original aesthetics, and looking a bit more maintained? The last sentence being the most important to me.
These issues are only valid if you elect not to do a frame off. The decision that needs to be made up front here is will you make this a cosmetic improvement effort as the jeeps continues to be a driver or lay the jeep up for several months at a time and do serious chunks of glamorization work in small groups?
Keeping it's mechanical guts is also a tough decision. I personally see any V-8 installation in any M38A1 a high maintenance issue. Your 260 Ford is an unusual choice. The Willys/Kaiser Dauntless V-6 or the later GM 231 V-6 version is the more common choice and all the adapters and trimmings are already on the Willys/Kaiser parts shelf. However your 260's installation seems reasonably well done. I don't care for the header tank installation though. The steering damper leads me to believe someone has tried that common band aid for worn out of tolerance steering parts.
Quote:
My thoughts are, fix the items I'm most concerned about, clean up the engine (do I do a complete tear down and repaint / clean it as I go?), repaint the interior, fix the exhaust to feed out the back as it should, then remove the fiber glass?
Again you must decide what goals are. If keeping the 260 is in your new plan then rebuilding it depends on it's current quality of performance. I would suggest compression checks and vacuum gauge readings first to determine what if anything is below the normally acceptable quality of performance level.
Quote:
Do I look into having it professionally restored?
This can be a very expensive solution.
Quote:
The gas pedal is off place, due to where the throttle cable feeds. The brake pedal isn't original, and the master cylinder isn't located where it should be to even install an original pedal. The gas tank doesn't have the 'feeder cup' on the side of the body, and I can't put one in either, because someone re-welded the pour spout where the cap screws into. These are all things that bother me.
This concern is valid if you intend to keep her as a driver because the added performance of a 150 + HP engine requires a much higher level of on board safety gear (Brakes, Steering) and tranny/transfer. The switch of only the brake system to a swinging pedal was not the best choice for your setup. I would have went with a standard dual swinging pedals setup and a hydraulic clutch. Then I would have upgraded to a later 4 speed and transfer. Steering I would have upgraded to saginaw if I kept the 260 V8.
Quote:
The exhaust is off of a Ford (like the engine), and I wanted to consider putting an 'original' muffler / exhaust on, leading to the rear of the vehicle. Someone also placed fiberglass on the driver and passenger side floorboards. I'm assuming to help protect against some heat from the muffler, that rests right underneath the passenger side. It doesn't look like the metal has decayed at all, so it wouldn't be for that.
The stock Willys exhaust is inadequate for your 260 V8. Your best bet here if you keep the V8 is to go with a custom exhaust shop to bend larger diameter piping and add a new custom muffler crossways at the rear of the jeep. Those front floors look more like they had steel sheet patches screwed in place before the fiberglass coating was applied.
Quote:
The radiator is original, and has been spot welded to ward off leaks... But, it leaks... A lot. It does surprisingly do a well enough job at keeping the engine cool, even in the Chicago summers.
If you keep the 260 then a leak proof exhaust is an absolute necessity that if you keep ignoring the leaks can end up costing you dearly down the road.
Hope this gives you a few things to think about. Please take your time and when you have a plan then post the entire plan here and then solicit advice on how to proceed with each part of your plan. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Thank you for the amazing responses, and taking the time to calm some of my nerves!
To help narrow that gap between what is realistic and what is just ideal, I'm hoping you wouldn't mind chiming in with a few more opinions. Your feedback has been invaluable.
Wes, do you think the current setup with the 260 is a recipe for inevitable disaster? Or is it just not setup to the ideal specs? It runs good, maybe needs a carb tune, but otherwise it starts and runs perfectly. No issues, aside from the radiator leaking. But that is addressable (new radiator). Brakes were upgraded, but I'm not mechanically knowledgeable enough to say much more than the upgrade consisted of 9 inch brakes.
Assuming I drive the vehicle meticulously and carefully, understanding that the guts of this car were never built for a 150 HP engine, do you assume I can get some decent years out of the parts, along with good maintenance? Or is it as I asked above, just a hope and a prayer every time I drive the vehicle?
If you think I'm safe from that perspective, I think my journey will start with the glamorization - My thoughts so far are:
Perhaps going as far as having the current front floor panels removed and replaced with new (I would want your feedback on this one especially)
Strip and then repaint the interior - Excluding the dash
Install the correct vacuum wiper motors
Clean up the engine, new radiator, remove some horns and the giant compressed air tank (there's 4, it's insane)
See if there's a way to move the accelerator pedal to the correct location (beyond my scope of expertise)
Custom exhaust to match as you described
New gas tank with the correct spout, so I can install the correct body work for the pour cover.
My other realistic option depending on your answers, is to sell this vehicle and purchase one that has all of the work already done. Which isn't a bad option, but potentially puts me out of a jeep for the summer.
I see some fully restored going for around $15,000, which is manageable. I think I paid around $8,000 for mine, though put in about $2,000 in new gaskets, seals, and work I've already had professionally done from a local Willys specialist - I understand I will not recoup that, which I'm fine taking a bath on. I don't think I could survive with the standard Hurricane engine though, so would need to hold out for a variation with that V6 you described.
Wes, do you think the current setup with the 260 is a recipe for inevitable disaster? Or is it just not setup to the ideal specs? It runs good, maybe needs a carb tune, but otherwise it starts and runs perfectly. No issues, aside from the radiator leaking. But that is addressable (new radiator). Brakes were upgraded, but I'm not mechanically knowledgeable enough to say much more than the upgrade consisted of 9 inch brakes.
Let's start with: What would be the best old jeep candidate for a new owner who considers himself not mechanically inclined?
My answer is at least a completely refurbished perfectly operating old jeep. Notice I did not mentioned "Restored".
The 260 is an OK engine but when you take a 1956 M38A1 with a 1960's Ford V8 and several other mods to a shop for repair work your bill will be much higher then it would be if you took a stock 1956 M38A1 to a shop for repairs. Plus the quality and experience level of the mechanic you intend to hire to do the work must be much higher then norm.
Limiting your speed alone will not guarantee and increase any reliability or safety with the modifications the jeep now has.
Of greatest concern is the condition of the steering system. I suggest you take the jeep to a front end / suspension shop and have them inspect the steering and suspension systems for integrity. This would include disconnection that add-on steering damper and checking for excessive wear/play in the steering system.
Quote:
Assuming I drive the vehicle meticulously and carefully, understanding that the guts of this car were never built for a 150 HP engine, do you assume I can get some decent years out of the parts, along with good maintenance? Or is it as I asked above, just a hope and a prayer every time I drive the vehicle?
I would assume it would last you several years as a decent local driver. Without a close inspection the cost of maintaining it for those several years is unknown.
Quote:
Perhaps going as far as having the current front floor panels removed and replaced with new (I would want your feedback on this one especially)
Most V8's require the moving forward of the grill/radiator or the moving aft of the firewall/front floors of a M38A1 for the engine to fit. Yours looks like the firewall and front half of the front floors were heavily modified. So replacement aftermarket front floors may improove appearance but will also require a lot of technical competence to fit properly.
Strip and then repaint the interior - Excluding the dash
Strip only if you are doing the complete tub. You will open pandoras box if you try to only strip certain parts of the tub.
Install the correct vacuum wiper motors
The correct vacuum wipers will be expensive to acquire since there is only one source (The Wiperman) and require a lot of plumbing changes to accomadate a vacuum booster since your 260 Ford fuel pump does not a vacuum booster built in. For a driver stay with electric!
Clean up the engine, new radiator, remove some horns and the giant compressed air tank (there's 4, it's insane)
These are all good ideas.
See if there's a way to move the accelerator pedal to the correct location (beyond my scope of expertise)
This will be a tough one.
Custom exhaust to match as you described
Good choice
New gas tank with the correct spout, so I can install the correct body work for the pour cover.
This will require about $300 worth of new gas tank and the right side repair panel.
Personally I would keep her as a daily driver. Then buy a M38A1 chassis, tub and running gear. Buy a V-6, and a matching 4 speed and modern transfer case. A pair of CJ5 axle assemblies based on the correct axle ratio for the V-6 with posi-trac and build a quality M38A1 sleeper replica with the only visible evidence of mods being the V-6 and the single lever transfer case.
On another note I doubt your A1 is a 1956 unit. It has the 52/53 grill and frame. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:05 pm Post subject:
If it was me and I had your youth and enthusiasm
I’d seriously considering swapping back to the
4 cylinder engine. The vehicle ultimately would be
worth more to an M jeep guy for what it’s worth.
Having said that as Wes pointed out if the tub was
major modified to wedge the 260 in there you could
spend the money elsewhere.
Good news is there is no fire forcing you to decide
right this minute. Again, echoing Wes, while you decide
make it a safe and reliable daily driver and enjoy it.
1. Steering
2.Brakes
Not necessarily in that order, but equally critical.
No point in being able to go if it won’t go where you want,
and won’t stop when you want.
Be sure and peruse the manuals free for downloading here.
Teriffic info to help you understand more about these old
warhorses.
To be sure, even the plastic jeep guys get jiggy when
they see one of these old OD jeeps next to them at the light.
And as others have said, when the old soldiers that rode these
Jeeps when they were new see one or get to ride in one it’s
memorable for everybody there.
I get a funny feeling when I’m wire wheeling through four
layers of house paint and discover OD under all that crap,
knowing it’s probably been forty years or more since it saw
the light of day.
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:09 pm Post subject:
Saw a jeep ad on tv the other night.
There’s a jeep being airdropped by parachute.
Pointed it out to the wife, then took her out and
showed her the lift rings fore and aft, and the
dings in the fenders put there by the front of the
cowl.
Several of us have those dings. Without serious
evidence of front end damage we like to think
it’s evidence our jeeps were airdropped at one point.
Joined: Feb 25, 2006 Posts: 344 Location: Wichita, KS
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:07 pm Post subject:
My opinion-
What you have is a M38A1, not one of the most valuable of the military jeeps (maybe the least valuable). With the corrections, additions, alterations you mentioned doing you are quickly investing more in that jeep than it is worth (you should be able to find a decent M38A1 with correct engine, etc for a whole lot less than $8,000). To me it looks good the way it sits. I would fix the safety items and enjoy the ride. If you are set on acquiring a more correct military jeep, then take your time and shop around- you will find one!
Kendall _________________ 1951 M38
1952 M38
1952 M38A1
1942 Dodge WC-55
1951 M100 trailer
1942 Ben Hur trailer
My opinion-
What you have is a M38A1, not one of the most valuable of the military jeeps (maybe the least valuable). With the corrections, additions, alterations you mentioned doing you are quickly investing more in that jeep than it is worth (you should be able to find a decent M38A1 with correct engine, etc for a whole lot less than $8,000). To me it looks good the way it sits. I would fix the safety items and enjoy the ride. If you are set on acquiring a more correct military jeep, then take your time and shop around- you will find one!
Kendall
Hi Kendall,
Thank you for the opinion, and I am in absolute agreement. I think I need to get this jeep up to my specs aesthetically, then just enjoy it for what it is.
If / when I want a more accurate vehicle, I'll go the route of purchasing it already restored, or will at least have the established knowledge to look for something that is a better base and less time consuming to restore myself.
Last edited by JustinWK on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
If it was me and I had your youth and enthusiasm
I’d seriously considering swapping back to the
4 cylinder engine. The vehicle ultimately would be
worth more to an M jeep guy for what it’s worth.
Having said that as Wes pointed out if the tub was
major modified to wedge the 260 in there you could
spend the money elsewhere.
Good news is there is no fire forcing you to decide
right this minute. Again, echoing Wes, while you decide
make it a safe and reliable daily driver and enjoy it.
1. Steering
2.Brakes
Not necessarily in that order, but equally critical.
No point in being able to go if it won’t go where you want,
and won’t stop when you want.
Be sure and peruse the manuals free for downloading here.
Teriffic info to help you understand more about these old
warhorses.
To be sure, even the plastic jeep guys get jiggy when
they see one of these old OD jeeps next to them at the light.
And as others have said, when the old soldiers that rode these
Jeeps when they were new see one or get to ride in one it’s
memorable for everybody there.
I get a funny feeling when I’m wire wheeling through four
layers of house paint and discover OD under all that crap,
knowing it’s probably been forty years or more since it saw
the light of day.
Take care,
You're absolutely right! I get more stares, waves and honks from onlookers than I had ever thought possible. I've even seen my jeep show up once on Facebook, from someone coincidentally snapping a picture of it as they saw me drive by (not knowing it was me).
My girlfriend's grandfather drove the same style M38A1 in the Vietnam War, so it also holds an extremely special place in her and her grandmother's heart.
I'd like to share the picture with all of you -
For now, I'll enjoy the jeep, and just get the mechanicals inspected per your suggestions.
I'll tool around with small cosmetic things as I go along - It gives me a hobby and is a great learning experience.
Trying to undue a bunch of mods to achieve a more stock vehicle is without a doubt the most expensive way to go (Ive done this too many times to count).
The most important thing is what makes you happy? If it is driving your military jeep with a big smile on your face vrs a 100% correct vehicle then this will direct your choices.
Seems there are three main ways to approach your dilemma:
1) Sell it now as-is where-is. Investing more money now will most likely not add to your to total recoup. Opinion only, but you are in to that Jeep too much to approach it as a money making proposition. you could drop 5K into it and still would be lucky to clear your original investment.
2) In for a penny in for a pound. Tear it down and correct back to original. This would be a choice only made if you are in love with that particular vehicle. I seriously believe you could buy a second Jeep in the condition that you want for less than you could restore the current one.
3) Lets enjoy what we got. My approach. Get the steering and brakes sorted out for safety and peace of mind, this is paramount. Get under the hood and weed out all the janky rube Goldberg stuff. Treat the engine to a compression test and tuneup. Clean the entire engine bay and repaint engine etc in OD, adds to the feel! Retape the harnesses if serviceable to give a new look. Go buy a new original clutch pedal and install. Get an original brake, have a professional welder cut off the foot portion and weld it to the hanging pedal. It will almost pass as stock then . Continue this piece meal as you have the time. Nothing needs to be done to disable the Jeep for months. Divide it into weekend projects. The floors will probably be the biggest challenge, but they don't have to be done today. The Jeep isn't a bad looking jeep, do these projects while you enjoy it, none of them are expensive. Bottom line, keep that smile on your face!
Being a frankenJeep owner myself Ive done this approach more than once.
Good Luck. _________________ '52 Dodge M37, '42 GPW, '48 FrankenJeep CJ2A/M38, '50 CJV-35(U), '51 M38, '42 WC-57 Command Car, '44 WC-51 Weapons , (2) M1941 Sperry 60" Anti-Aircraft Searchlights, John Deere M-gator, '44 White M3A1 Scout Car
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. Continue this piece meal as you have the time. Nothing needs to be done to disable the Jeep for months. Divide it into weekend projects. The floors will probably be the biggest challenge, but they don't have to be done today. The Jeep isn't a bad looking jeep, do these projects while you enjoy it, none of them are expensive. Bottom line, keep that smile on your face!
