Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:30 pm Post subject: Evaluating condition of Dana25 knuckle
I'm working on my steering knuckles and would like to beg the benefit of experienced eyes.
Here is the level of pitting on the axle side of the closed knuckle - will this make a poor seal? Damage the wipers? leak? I can't think of anything I could do to smooth this.
Here is the groove in the race of the bendix joint of the axle shaft.
I have a short video of checking the end play according to my reading of the TM9-8015-2. My take is that this exceeds allowable play, however the TM9 doesn't seem to give any guidance other than 'install oversized balls'. Given the groove showing above - I worry that going large enough to take out the clunk will mean the balls will bind up in the rest of race when turning.
Joined: Nov 18, 2014 Posts: 128 Location: Connecticut
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Evaluating condition of Dana25 knuckle
Ivoryring wrote:
I'm working on my steering knuckles and would like to beg the benefit of experienced eyes.
Here is the level of pitting on the axle side of the closed knuckle - will this make a poor seal? Damage the wipers? leak? I can't think of anything I could do to smooth this.
I know very little about these axles as I myself am still learning as I go along with my project. That being said, from a machinist's viewpoint, the pitting on the axle housing itself is most likely not going to be repaired easily. I have never heard of or seen anyone who manufactures new spherical ends that could be cut and welded onto the existing axle housing, so I would have to assume that anyone who has a closed knuckle with far too much damage would replace the entire axle housing. After a few quick searches online, I also can't seem to find anyone who manufactures a replacement axle housing, which means your only option is most likely going to be finding a used axle in better shape.
That being said, in my unprofessional opinion, the pitting you have does not look that bad. If it were my axle, I would sand down the pitting to get it as smooth as possible to ensure the seals and wipers won't tear on any high-spots or sharp edges. After sanding, if I were still really concerned about tearing the seals, I might research some metal fillers that could be applied with a putty knife and sanded back down smooth by hand. And if I was super concerned that a metal filler would not work, then I would cut the spherical ends off the axle housing, have a machine shop cut down the entire outside of the sphere, have them chrome plated and then weld them back onto the axle housing .
Just my own opinion, take it for what it is. You know what they say about opinions... _________________ Jake, Central CT
51 M38 s/n 35627
The simple answer is temporarily assemble the joint with the new oversized balls and see ju8st how they perform. Since the wear you show has effected both the inner sphere and the old balls there should be adequate room for the new oversize balls. If it traverses smoothly you have answered your own question the best possible way. Once their serviceability is established move on to your pitting issue.
The more material you remove the less tightly the seals will fit. Just clean off the sharp edges. Get a quality metal or composite based metal filler and smoothly apply a very thin layer with the palms of your hands then when that dries smooth it with light to medium grit sand paper. I would use a very light single coat of a quality primer followed by a very light single coat of engine enamel. Now you have a smooth sealing surface.
If you elect the drastic surgery listed above: Do not cut the balls off the ends of the axle tubes without first obtaining or fabricating an assembly jig to insure the ball is aligned with the axle housing correctly! _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
When you say "traverses smoothly" are you referring to "in a vice as per TM9 check for play" or " with wheel mounted, on jack stands, turning by hand at different steering angles" or "road test"?
About the pitting: I cleaned off the rust and flaking powder coat with a wire wheel - so I think it's been deburred at this point - no high spots that I can feel (previous owner had the entire frame powder coated... Including sealing up various zerk fittings, and the knuckle ball right up to the seal). I was worried a filler wouldn't hold up and would contaminate the lubrication in the knuckle, but if it's best to fill, sand, prime and enamel those surfaces I can do that.
I don't anticipate "cut them off and weld on new ones" as a solution for me - it feels like getting the kingpin holes aligned would be a non trivial undertaking. _________________ Tundra (really my name, not my truck)
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 1909 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:31 am Post subject:
Hi Wes, I'm just spit-balling here, so be gentle with me please.
If Tundra were to polish, sand, or fill the pits on the ball as best as possible, do you think installing a double felt seal under the retainer might avoid leaks? And we all know the tech manual calls for filling the knuckle with gear oil but many folks successfully use "knuckle pudding" concoctions or just plain John Deere Cornhead Grease. Do you think he'd see leaks if he used that instead of gear oil?
Like you said, it seems reasonable to try before cutting the housing apart or looking to buy a serviceable Dana 25. _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
Just assembled thru the hub and tested by hand on the axle housing. If you had a serious bump before then you should have been able to feel that bump just pivoting the knuckle assemblies by hand. Same goes now. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Just assembled thru the hub and tested by hand on the axle housing. If you had a serious bump before then you should have been able to feel that bump just pivoting the knuckle assemblies by hand. Same goes now.
I reassembled, with lubrication, without changing the bearing ball. I'm unable to feel the bump. I'm just using the wheel hub, not wheel or tire on it, and I can't feel any backlash, even though I feel it when I did the vice test of the joint. Is that normal? Am I misunderstanding what I should be feeling?
To be clear about my method - I have t-case in N, have the other side wheel on the ground, tie rod not connected to the knuckle I'm testing, when I rotate the wheel hub as if the tire was going down the road, and turn on the kingpin axis as if steering, I don't feel any bumps or weird play as I'm turning the wheel hub at any angle.
Does this mean that the groove that's visible just isn't deep enough to care about and I should just run it as is?
So far this M38A1 has not been driven under its own power by me - so I can't reference 'how it felt before I started work'. _________________ Tundra (really my name, not my truck)
What oversize did you select for the new balls? My Bad. I just noticed you reassembled it with the old balls. That was not my meaning when I said: " The simple answer is temporarily assemble the joint with the new oversized balls and see just how they perform." I meant to replace the worn balls with the correct new oversized balls, check axle backlash per the TM 9-8015-2 (With downward pressure on the outer shaft while the vice holds the inner shaft), then if you have satisfied the TM's backlash limit do the temp assembly to confirm it traverses smoothly when installed. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
That is how I took your direction - that I should try new oversize ball and then check.
The reason I reassembled to check with the existing bearing balls to give myself a baseline of your "If you had a serious bump before then you should have been able to feel that.."
Do you happen to know if anyone that has the bearing balls available, or should I just measure and find something a bit bigger from an industrial supplier? _________________ Tundra (really my name, not my truck)
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