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Lug Nuts

 
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cobra5
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Joined: Mar 10, 2013
Posts: 103
Location: Stevensville, Montana

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:32 pm    Post subject: Lug Nuts Reply with quote

I know the lug nuts on the M38a1 are 3/4 but after removing a tire over this past week, it appears the holes in the wheel are bigger than the nuts. I checked the other 3 wheels on this jeep along with the four wheels on another jeep and they all look like they have the same issue. I'll post a photo later to illustrate what I'm seeing.
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1951 M37 WOW, 1953 M37 WOW, 1954 M37 WOW, 1953 M38-A1, 1954 M38-A1, 1964 M151-A1, 1967 M151-A1, 1968 M151-A1, 1978 M151-A2, 1989 M35A2C, 1965 M416, 1966 M416, 1967 M416
MSgt, USAF Retired 1/84-10/05
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wesk
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cobra,

Is that your entire current stable of restored and running MV's?

Those 1/2"-20NF-3x1.42 studs usually do not fill 100% of the tapered/recessed hole in the wheel. The tapered lug nuts edge at the small end is very close to the 1/2" stud diameter but it is the taper of the lug nuts that move the wheel ever so slightly to ensure a good centering of the wheel on the end of the axle.

The hex size of the lug nuts I have seen in both (5/8" Wrong) 13/16" and 3/4" depending on the supplier. I believe the (5/8" wrong) 3/4" hex was original. I have aftermarket 13/16" hex lug nuts on my M38 because I wanted brand new nuts. They have a wee bit too much meat and actually overfill the wheel hole.

Looking forward to your photos.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php


Last edited by wesk on Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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cobra5
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Joined: Mar 10, 2013
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Location: Stevensville, Montana

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes,

1951 M37 WOW (INW)
1953 M37 WOW (Parts truck)
1954 M37 WOW (Non runner complete)
1953 M38-A1 (Runs & Drives but needs a lot of work)
1954 M38-A1 (Older Resto by PO. Currently working on its issues)
1964 M151-A1 (Restored by PO. Needs a lot of attention)
1967 M151-A1 (Totally disassembled for restoration)
1968 M151-A1 (Totally disassembled for restoration)
1978 M151-A2 (Completed restoration in 2009)
1989 M35A2C (DLA 2012, same condition as when I drove it off the base)
1965 M416, 1966 M416, 1967 M416 (GSA lot 2010. 1 disassembled to restore)
These are others I have but the forum limits characters:
1951 M37 W/W (PO had it running but needs a total restore)
1951 M105A1 (PO had it framed out and covered with plywood.)
1989 M105A2 (DLA auction 2014, same condition as when it left the base)
1980 Colman Aircraft Tug (GSA auction 2016, This one was converted by the USAF to tow bomb trailers from the dump. Needs restore)

OK so here are my photos:

This is what I found. It almost looks like someone didn't have the lugs tight.
[/url]


This is the rim from the photo above. There are two holes that look buggered up. However the lug nuts all look the same when the wheels are installed. You can see that on the next photo.
[url=http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/showphoto.php?photo=287820&title=pic22&cat=500]



This photo is of the front wheel still on the vehicle.
[url=http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/showphoto.php?photo=287821&title=pic31&cat=500][/url]

_________________
1951 M37 WOW, 1953 M37 WOW, 1954 M37 WOW, 1953 M38-A1, 1954 M38-A1, 1964 M151-A1, 1967 M151-A1, 1968 M151-A1, 1978 M151-A2, 1989 M35A2C, 1965 M416, 1966 M416, 1967 M416
MSgt, USAF Retired 1/84-10/05
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RonD2
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Joined: Oct 02, 2014
Posts: 1887
Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, that's quite a motor stable!

I have 13/16-inch (wrench size) lug nuts on mine, although I believe the 3/4-inch wrench size is correct because the wrench the Army supplied for lug nuts was 3/4-inch. The ORD9 doesn't give the wrench size for the lug nuts, just the 1/2-20 thread size.

Pretty sure they both have 60-degree conical seats to mate with the wheel. As near as I can tell, 60-degrees is the industry standard for acorn-style conical seat lug nuts and wheels.

Maybe somebody has the engineering drawing for the wheel or lug nut?

It does look like you might have some wallowed out holes. Does the nut bottom out before the wheel is tight?
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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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wesk
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron was correct. The original hex size was 3/4". I corrected my post above. The 13/16" are aftermarket and a wee bit too big but I am using them on my M38 because I wanted brand new lug nuts.

Cobra, Your photos did not show up on their own because you had mixed the [url][/url] brackets with the [img][/img] brackets. I edited your post and corrected it. You do not need to use the [url][/url] brackets when posting photos. You only need the link to the photo bracketed by [img]Link to photo[/img].

It is not uncommon for 60 to 70 year old wheels to have worn lug nut holes and the aftermarket 15/16" hex lug nuts fill that up with meat left over. The only thing I dislike about them is they only leave a thread or 2 of the stud showing outboard.

I am retired USAF as well. 1966 - 1989 Included 2 yrs Army reserves Hueys.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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cobra5
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Location: Stevensville, Montana

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron,

The lug nuts tighten on the wheel ok but it just doesn't look safe. Looks like the conical seats on the nuts should be larger. I don't know if new 3/4" lug nuts would make a difference or not. I do think that the two holes in that rim make it unsafe.

Wes,

Don't know what happen with the photos. I copied and pasted the link and it looked good on my end but thanks for correcting it. I can get the larger size lug nuts and see how they will work. If I can get a two threads protrusion out the end of the lug nuts I should be good. A minimum of two threads protruding through a non self locking nut is acceptable in aviation.
_________________
1951 M37 WOW, 1953 M37 WOW, 1954 M37 WOW, 1953 M38-A1, 1954 M38-A1, 1964 M151-A1, 1967 M151-A1, 1968 M151-A1, 1978 M151-A2, 1989 M35A2C, 1965 M416, 1966 M416, 1967 M416
MSgt, USAF Retired 1/84-10/05


Last edited by cobra5 on Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RonD2
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to recall reading threads where folks welded a bead around a wallowed out hole and then machined the 60-degree cone back on it. Might be worth it to save an otherwise good wheel?

Agree. Unsafe wheels are bad stuff. Here's one you don't ever want to see (apparently cheap off-shore junk MB/GPW Combat Wheel).


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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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wesk
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A minimum of two threads protruding through a non self locking nut is acceptable in aviation.
Actually the rule is a minimum of two threads showing with any nut, locking or non-locking. The point I think being overlooked here is the nut cone and the wheel hole cones are not the exact same angle. You'll notice both angles described as 60 Degrees above. Just like the later style angle seat spark plugs the difference in angle provides a locking feature. The tapered lug nuts are held in place with proper torque and angle difference.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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RonD2
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes,
Maybe it's me or just the way you said it, but did you say that when new the cone angle of the lug nut and wheel are both 60 degrees and that the increased mating surface provided by that angle gives the locking feature?

...or that the cone of the nut and wheel are intentionally not made the same 60 degrees?

...or that after 70 years of use, the angles on used nuts and wheels could wear down to different angles, which could then interfere with the locking action and thereby cause wheel holes to get wallowed out because of loose nuts?

Just want to make sure I understand what you said. Thanks!
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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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wesk
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What can I say different Ron. I said all I could on the point already. Try reading it again.

Quote:
The point I think being overlooked here is the nut cone and the wheel hole cones are not the exact same angle. You'll notice both angles described as 60 Degrees above. Just like the later style angle seat spark plugs the difference in angle provides a locking feature. The tapered lug nuts are held in place with proper torque and angle difference.


Quote:
but did you say that when new the cone angle of the lug nut and wheel are both 60 degrees
NO

Quote:
and that the increased mating surface provided by that angle gives the locking feature?
In a way maybe.

Quote:
...or that the cone of the nut and wheel are intentionally not made the same 60 degrees?
I believe, lacking factory nut/wheel drawings, that the best way to make the two angles help secure the nut is to do it the same way the tapers of the modern spark plugs and their mating seats do it with dis-similar angles.



Quote:
or that after 70 years of use, the angles on used nuts and wheels could wear down to different angles, which could then interfere with the locking action and thereby cause wheel holes to get wallowed out because of loose nuts?
I would suspect 70 years of proper use, maintenance and attention would not have this effect. My 60 years of experience in vehicle and aircraft maintenance tells me in most wallowed out wheel disc lug holes the culprit was the wheel installer who failed to properly torque the lug nut and not worn taper surfaces.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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cobra5
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the reason I removed the wheel was to replace a leaking wheel cylinder. I finally got time to finish that job and instead of reinstalling the questionable wheel I chose to install the spare in its place. The spare tire is brand new like the rest of the tires so it was a no brainer.
_________________
1951 M37 WOW, 1953 M37 WOW, 1954 M37 WOW, 1953 M38-A1, 1954 M38-A1, 1964 M151-A1, 1967 M151-A1, 1968 M151-A1, 1978 M151-A2, 1989 M35A2C, 1965 M416, 1966 M416, 1967 M416
MSgt, USAF Retired 1/84-10/05
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wesk
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you buy some of those BIG nuts. The set I put on mine actually has two threads on the outer edge still unoccupied!
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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cobra5
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wesk wrote:
Did you buy some of those BIG nuts. The set I put on mine actually has two threads on the outer edge still unoccupied!


No I haven't. What do you think about using some type of conical washer for the lug nut to bite into instead of the wheel holes?
_________________
1951 M37 WOW, 1953 M37 WOW, 1954 M37 WOW, 1953 M38-A1, 1954 M38-A1, 1964 M151-A1, 1967 M151-A1, 1968 M151-A1, 1978 M151-A2, 1989 M35A2C, 1965 M416, 1966 M416, 1967 M416
MSgt, USAF Retired 1/84-10/05
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wesk
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I would not use any washer where a non-self locking nut was originally used without a washer. Especially where the specific annual was part of the locking function.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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RonD2
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see 60-degree cone washers for sale on the interweb for $3 each, but if your studs are short, they'll be even shorter when you add washers.

Seems to me that using the larger 13/16 lug nuts would easily solve the problem and be a lot cheaper than buying cone washers and longer studs?
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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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