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willysmjeeps.com :: View topic - Pinout in error?
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Pinout in error?

 
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mdainsd
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be advised that the pinout on this forum for the two connector Bendix is not correct. That cost me hours of trouble shooting today. I built my harness to the pin out but it had more bugs than a cheap hotel.
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2004 M1025, 1952 Dodge M37, 1968 Dodge M615 export ambulance, 1942 MB script, 1948 FrankenJeep CJ2A/M38, 1951 M38, (2) M1941 Sperry 60" Anti-Aircraft Searchlight, (3) John Deere M-gators.
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wesk
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My dear mdainsd,

I had to move your post from the Wanted Board to the Technical Board because it was not about a wanted item and most certainly is of a Technical nature.

Now please tell us exactly which pinout illustration you are referring to for there are quite a few light switch pinouts shown in many of our albums.

Then please be specific in what exactly is in error on said pinout.

It would help tremendously if you would actually post the pinout illustration here to help with this new discussion.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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mdainsd
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the illustration in question:



It is a composite made up of an edited illustration from the repair manual for a test set-up on the right and an un-identified face pattern for a twelve pin connector on the left.

Lets start with the simple stuff. Whats wrong with the pin call outs between the two shared illustrations?
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2004 M1025, 1952 Dodge M37, 1968 Dodge M615 export ambulance, 1942 MB script, 1948 FrankenJeep CJ2A/M38, 1951 M38, (2) M1941 Sperry 60" Anti-Aircraft Searchlight, (3) John Deere M-gators.
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wesk
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's start even simpler than that. That illustration the way I posted it is absolutely correct.



The one you are using came from Brian's old post where he took the liberty of pasting that surplus harness 12 pin plug that he created a pinout for.
http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=9524

Those old surplus harnesses came off an Ebay sale and all had that odd pinout that does not match any of the individual vehicle wiring diagrams. To use them in one of our jeeps requires swapping pin positions on several pins and deleting the uses of several.

Stay with my original illustration from my album and all will be well.

I have several good choices for light switch pinouts in my album:







The incorrect pinning of those harness is probably why they ended up surplus.

Here's the M35/44 series wiring diagram that the surplus harnesses should have matched:


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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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wesk
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took the liberty of editing Brian's illustration to provide adequate warning for folks who missed his comments in the post that Brian's illustration is not be used for actual wiring work on your jeeps.


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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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mdainsd
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes.

Thank you for all that effort. Very frustrating day yesterday. It was not helped by not one, but two NOS sealed in the box Bendix switches being completely dead.

Tearing those apart, especially without marring them is such a pleasant task. Once inside the failure mode was the same on both. The silver buttons and the wiper arms were all tarnished black. Some silver polish, disassembly to remove ancient grease a lube and that miserable re-assembly process and I have working switches again.

Again thank you for clearing it up.

Side bar: Is there anywhere a completely correct annotated wiring diagram for the early M-38? Single or two connector light switch will do. Most fall down in the gauge panel with either missing information or showing all the same sex connectors on the gauges even though they have one of each.

This adds fun complications as I have new spider harnesses that either have all male, all female, or a mix Evil or Very Mad
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2004 M1025, 1952 Dodge M37, 1968 Dodge M615 export ambulance, 1942 MB script, 1948 FrankenJeep CJ2A/M38, 1951 M38, (2) M1941 Sperry 60" Anti-Aircraft Searchlight, (3) John Deere M-gators.
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wesk
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two primary sources for M38 wiring diagrams. TM 9-804, the early M38 operator's manual dated SEP 1950 and TM 9-8012 the later Operator's Manaul dated JAN 1956. Both use wiring diagram illustrations that clearly indicate sexual orientation of the Douglas connectors. The half of the connector in each illustration with an X in it is the male half. Don't confuse male female terminology for the metal Douglass connector bells with typical male female descriptions of pins and sockets in the wiring itself.

The issue specific to you on the spider harness is not addressed in the wiring diagrams. The spider is Wire #27 for all 4 of it's legs. Early M38's it connected to the instrument power CB on the panel cluster and to the " Power In " side of the three gauges that have senders (oil press, water temp & fuel quantity). You can see the sender leads in the wiring diagrams have female bells and the gauges have mail bells because the X is on the gauge side. The tech writers did a poor job of conveying what was on the tips of the 4 #27 wires in the spider harness.


One of the early TM 9-804 diagrams


One of the late TM 9-8012 diagrams.


Here in TM 9-804 Fig's 70 & 71 you see the resistors and the panel CB.


Here in TM 9-8012 you see the late arrangement without resistors & panel CB.


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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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mdainsd
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again thanks Wes. I am familiar with the males and females of both packards and Douglass connectors.

But, look again at the connections to the gauges, both early and late wiring diagrams indicate that all the gauges have two MALE connectors. They do not. They all have one each male and one each female.

Also using your definition (picture in your post) X does not designate the male shell. "X" designates female shells. The shell with the slots is the female on single conductor connectors. Best I have determined is that the general rule of thumb on MV wiring is that current flows from male to female. Tail lights have female shells, as does the trailer connector, oil pressure sending unit, temp sending unit, black out drive light, marker lights etc.

Then it all goes to $&% with the three way shells, here the one with the tabs is marked female.

I have given up on the resistor gauges as they are a bear to find the right senders for. So I am using the later Douglass 24V versions.
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2004 M1025, 1952 Dodge M37, 1968 Dodge M615 export ambulance, 1942 MB script, 1948 FrankenJeep CJ2A/M38, 1951 M38, (2) M1941 Sperry 60" Anti-Aircraft Searchlight, (3) John Deere M-gators.
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mdainsd
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah. I see what is happening I think..

Neither wiring diagram deals with the spider harness. Just doesn't show it. So the females on the temp, oil and fuel go to the senders. The spider harness feeds the male side. But the ammeter is still wrong on the drawings, they have one each male and female and the diagram shows to females.

I'll get there by gosh. It isn't rocket science but it has caused me confusion....
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2004 M1025, 1952 Dodge M37, 1968 Dodge M615 export ambulance, 1942 MB script, 1948 FrankenJeep CJ2A/M38, 1951 M38, (2) M1941 Sperry 60" Anti-Aircraft Searchlight, (3) John Deere M-gators.
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wesk
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said three posts up:

Quote:
The issue specific to you on the spider harness is not addressed in the wiring diagrams. The spider is Wire #27 for all 4 of it's legs. Early M38's it connected to the instrument power CB on the panel cluster and to the " Power In " side of the three gauges that have senders (oil press, water temp & fuel quantity). You can see the sender leads in the wiring diagrams have female bells and the gauges have mail bells because the X is on the gauge side. The tech writers did a poor job of conveying what was on the tips of the 4 #27 wires in the spider harness.


You are catching on! Only the four gauge side terminals for the senders are shown in the wiring diagrams.

Yes the Tech Writers botched the ammeter terminals as well! But over the last 40 years I have grown use to 2nd guessing the Army's tech writers!
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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mdainsd
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spent the morning and early afternoon with the Radio project. Then turned my attention to the wiring with a clear mind.

All good now and going back together.
_________________
2004 M1025, 1952 Dodge M37, 1968 Dodge M615 export ambulance, 1942 MB script, 1948 FrankenJeep CJ2A/M38, 1951 M38, (2) M1941 Sperry 60" Anti-Aircraft Searchlight, (3) John Deere M-gators.
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