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willysmjeeps.com :: View topic - Massive Carb flooding on M38 Carter
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Massive Carb flooding on M38 Carter
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joebuck
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Joined: Jul 16, 2013
Posts: 153
Location: oxford mississippi

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

weekend recap on Carb rebuild

installed rebuilt carb friday night at camp....would not hit!! no fire to plugs.. Great...just great..

Wife called sat morning crying and informed me she left the laundry room sink on all night and half our hard wood floors in kitchen are flooded......

Shot a heavy 10 pt Sat. night with my recurve. let him bed over night....got up sunday to look ... after a 300 yard blood trail....i knew wasnt good...called in tracking dog/handler... they jumped the buck and buck ran to Mississippi River and is now a resident of Arkansas...saw it with my own eyes in my binoculars....dog was swimming till handler buzzed him off...

Threw in the towel on jeep.. i am no mechanic obviously so trailered jeep to a part time mechanic who will work on it...for $$$$$$

$&% of a weekend..............but i still have my looks at 56 and a nice duck dog
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wesk
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some days we should not get out of bed!
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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joebuck
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fresh off the press!! Mechanic just called and said he is too fat to get behind driver seat so he is trying to engaged floor starter from passenger side and can't..!!! keeps getting better.....
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wesk
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tell him to use the OLD MECHANIC trick and open the hood, turn the main ignition switch on and operate the pedal by hand or vice grip from outside!
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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joebuck
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I told Him,

Now he says its definitely FLOODED issue. Carburator...
Smae issue as before I socalled rebuilt.......He said fuel pump is fine....how in the heck is fuel dumping in the manifold!!

According to manual, i replace or checked everything....exept bowl vent? ummmm...where bowl vent?
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wesk
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plugged bowl vent will result in little to no fuel feeding from the bowl at all.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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joebuck
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My best shot at a mechanic , threw in the towel and told me to come get it. Said the Carb keeps flooding the manifold and the plugs are ruined. he told me to find a 1952 specialist or he would put a modern carb on it.

I guess my best option is buy a $350 new Carter YS carb and see what happens.? Been down the list in manual dozen times checking off the troubling shooting for Carburator Floods or leaks and scratch me head...
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LTDan
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop. Relax. Take a deep breath and just walk away for a bit.

My 2 cents on this after having rebuild several carbs over the years. As Wes mentioned the float valve and the float.

Those little valves are quite touchy and do not like any dirt or debris at all. It only takes a tiny grain of debris to not allow it to fully close.

A sinking float will not rise with the lvl of the fuel in the carb and hence not close the float valve. Allowing fuel in at all times.

I would suggest pulling out the needle valve and the seat. Make sure that both are perfectly clean.
Next take the float by itself and place it in a bowl of water, see if it floats. Next take the float an hold it underwater and see if you can spot any air leaks. Then dry off the float hold it up next to your ear and give it a shake to see if you can hear any liquid sloshing around inside the float.

Once done with this reassemble the float, seat and valve. try blowing through the fuel inlet with your mouth. Air should pass through.
While still blowing gently lift the float up and see if the air stops with the valve closed.

Check your float height is correct.

Reassemble your carb. repeat the blowing air through it and then turn it upside down to see if the air stops.
Note: the carb should be empty when you try this.

Next i would set the carb on a bench and add fuel to the inlet and see if the float stops the fuel or you get fuel every where.

If you still get fuel everywhere here is what i would be looking for.

1. Float valve has debris or is not closing fully
2. Float height is not adjusted properly
3. Float has taken on fuel and will not float properly
4. something other than the float or float valve is the culprit.

You could set the carb on a bench with the top off of it. Fill it with fuel and see if the fuel drains out anywhere.

One more thing before i forget.


Are you running the stock fuel pump or are you running an electrical fuel pump?
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joebuck
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Location: oxford mississippi

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Dan!
Yes I am running a stock / original pump.
I have done everything you suggest except take top off and actually watch the fuel fill the bowl and see if it leaks out or drain some how.
I submerged the float and all is well. Replace needle and value and did blow through gas line when I raised the float to see if it would cut off.

Question: Mechanic said I need new plugs since fouled them . I just bought those plugs new and they now have fouled twice. He said they are no good since they have been fouled. What do you think?
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LTDan
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the mechanic is saying that you need new plugs seeing as how those plugs are fouled.

Take out the plugs.
Take a small bit of sand paper and just gently scratch the center electrode and the ground electrode clean.
Set the plugs to the proper gap with a feeler gauge. (I don't recommend the cheap coin style. get yourself a proper set for 7 bucks or so. They will be like an old knife with lots of little plates and one thumb screw. The parts house will know what you are talking about.
Connect a plug wire to a plug and set the plug against the motor so the outer metal of the plug touches the motor.
Turn the motor over and observe if you are getting a nice fat spark. Blue is great but yellow will do. (Also don't hold the plug by the metal or it will give you a nice bite. Hold the plug by the end of the wire and hope the insulation is good.)


If you have good spark then you will be fine.

When ever I run into a fouled plug it has been due to oil and not fuel.

Even when i have had a fouled plug due to too much fuel a quick pull of the plug and hold it under a lighter to burn off the fuel and then put it back in.

What reputation do the mechanics have that you are taking your jeep to?

I would suggest calling around to different shops and asking for the old school mechanics who may have retired. Also call your local machine shop they know who is working on older stuff due to the engines that they get in to be machined.

As to what fuel pump you were using, I asked this due to the fact that if you run an electric pump they put out too much psi and the carbs do not run well with them. You end up having to use a pressure regulator and a gauge. Which is what I have on my M38A1.

Did you turn the cover upside down while blowing air? It may be that the float height is too much and the float will touch the top of the carb and not shut off the fuel.

Also do the blow test with the carb assembled and empty this should tell you if something may be causing the float to bind for some reason.


Anyhow these old jeeps are fun to work on but can be a total pain in the ass at the same time. I just put my motor back in mine yesterday. Fought with it forever and then I just had to put it down walk away and come back to it a few hours later. I then dropped the transmission coupled the two together on the floor of the shop and the put the whole pack back in easy as pie.

If you get to the point you want to put a hammer into the motor then you know its time to just get out and do something else for a bit or cause yourself more grief.
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wesk
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You could set the carb on a bench with the top off of it. Fill it with fuel and see if the fuel drains out anywhere.


This step will let you know if you have any hidden leaks at both fittings and cracks not easily seen.

I think your mechanic calls a plug fouled when it is only saturated with gas. Normally in this industry a fouled plug is fouled with lead deposits or oil. A wet plug is one that has been saturated in gas.

Wet or fouled does not condemn a plug. You clean and dry it, ohm check it and if at all possible put it in a spark plug tester and fire the plug. You said they were a new set of plugs. Did you gap them????? before installation?



I have 3 of these. One in my garage and one in my hangar shop and a spare one. It takes two minutes to clean, gap and spark check a plug on this machine. If you don't have an above average auto shop in town then try your local airport mechanic's shop.

Throughout this ordeal I have not seen you post the actual fuel pump output pressure on your engine. It should be 4 to 5 1/2 PSI at 1800 RPM.

Don't ignore one of the easiest forms of troubleshooting. Substitution of components! Borrow a set of plugs and any YS or WO Carter that will fit your engine and try to run it.

Dan and I are throwing a lot at you here. If you are unable to grasp it and use it then by all means take the jeep to a reputable shop but not a buddy that wrenches a little!
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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joebuck
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Location: oxford mississippi

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Wes and Dan for info help.
When the mechanic kept bringing up "lets put a new shiney modern one on and nobody will know" I figured he wasn't my guy to roll up his sleeves and read the manuals i provided him.

i am going to get it out of his shop this weekend and take home ( not the camp) so i can keep my hands on it 24/7.

I really like the idea of taking it off and filling with gas and seeing what happens! thanks for that advice.

Plan D is send off for a professional rebuild and inspection.
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joebuck
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couldnít make myself give up, had to take it off one more time and observe . I dried out manifold and put carb on and tried to crank. It turned over and over and never hit. Took carb off and observation
1. Manifold had about 1/4 ď on gas liquid standing from dry 30 seconds before
2. Pull a plug and top of head and plug dry as a bone.
3. Fill bowl up with gas with air horn off and jet hole by bowl fills up with gas at level of bowl.???Itís the skinny vertical hole the high speed jet pump from bottom in.
Anything sound not right?
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LTDan
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe can you post up some pictures so we are all on the same page? If you dont have a photo album just request on from wesk.
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joebuck
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3. Thatís the long skinny cavity that the bleeder tube goes in. It fills up with gas from bowl and stays same level as bowl. Is that normal.
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