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willysmjeeps.com :: View topic - M38 Radiator Mounting
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M38 Radiator Mounting

 
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RonD2
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Joined: Oct 02, 2014
Posts: 516
Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:22 pm    Post subject: M38 Radiator Mounting Reply with quote

The M38 ORD9 page 95 calls for mounting the radiator with WASHER, FLAT, extra-hv series, part number 446485.

Figure 41 on page 144 of TM9-8012 doesn't clearly show if the washer is cut like mine, and the installation procedure on that same page seems to say the washer is 11/32nd's thick (that's a darn THICK washer). It doesn't seem that thick in the figure to me. Anyway, my washers measure 5/32's thick so I'm thinking they aren't right? They do look special made (not hack-sawed off).

Does anybody have a photo and maybe measurements of the correct washer (is it really 11/32nd's THICK?), along with a pointer on where to get a pair? As always, thanks!

And while I'm here, I might as well ask about the CUSHION, rubber, radiator to frame, WO-A4413 and WO-A4414 for these washers, also on page 95 in the ORD9. One is 3/16 thick and the other is 1/8 thick, The ORD9 says both are "optional" with the other. Does anybody know what that means? Use both? Use one, or the other, but not both?

I must be missing something HUGE on this post... Shocked




_________________
Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
1954 M100 Dunbar Kapple M750759 dod 1-54

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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wesk
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Joined: Apr 04, 2005
Posts: 14227
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
They both say "optional" with the other. Does anybody know what that means?


A more common way to express that is: "Either may be substituted for the other!" or "Either is a suitable substitute for the other!"

The above is not the same as: "This part is superseded by _______!" You are expected to use only the newer part.

Nor is the above comments the same as: "Use this part until stock is depleted then use this part!"

Quote:
seems to say the washer is 11/32nd's thick

That 11/32" refers to the OD of the washer. ID is 7/16" but thickness is not stated in either 8012 or the ORD 9. The ORD 9 does describe that washer as "Heavy series" which would probably be twice the thickness of the Light Series or about 0.120 to 0.150.

Quote:
Figure 41 on page 144 of TM9-8012 doesn't clearly show if the washer is cut like mine


The one shown in fig 41 looks very round to me and both as shown in the ORD 9 are clearly round.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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RonD2
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Joined: Oct 02, 2014
Posts: 516
Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Wes,

How can the OD of the washer be 11/32 (= 0.34375) and the ID be 7/16 (= 0.4375)? And the mounting holes on the two tabs welded to the cross member are more than an inch in diameter (1-1/8 inch to be exact). It seems to me that the washer OD has to be bigger than 1-1/8 just to hold the radiator down? Maybe I'm missing it. Maybe the 11/32 is a typo and should be 1-11/32? Maybe somebody has a photo (or drawing?) of the real thing to clear this up?

I agree that my "cut" washers aren't correct and should be round (previous owner assembled the radiator).

Yes, I understand the terms "substitute", "superseded by", and "use until exhausted". Never seen the "optional with the other" before. Taken literally it tells me I can use either or both at my discretion. The specific question is: Which CUSHION or CUSHIONS should be used on the M38? The TM says nothing about picking one or the other, or using both because it depends on how the radiator might need to be fitted to the mount (or some other reason). I was just looking for some advice.
_________________
Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
1954 M100 Dunbar Kapple M750759 dod 1-54

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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wesk
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Joined: Apr 04, 2005
Posts: 14227
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Taken literally it tells me I can use either or both at my discretion. The specific question is: Which CUSHION or CUSHIONS should be used on the M38? The TM says nothing about picking one or the other, or using both because it depends on how the radiator might need to be fitted to the mount (or some other reason).


If you read your post back to yourself you will realize you already answered your own question!!!! Take a peak in the ORD 9 again at the cushion listing and look way over to the left column where it says both originated on the G503 . So does it make any difference which of the old MB cushions you use? Yes it may depend on which one fits your installation best. Notice I said best because it is quite possible on many old deformed units that neither may fit well.

Quote:
How can the OD of the washer be 11/32 (= 0.34375) and the ID be 7/16 (= 0.4375)?


I didn't say it was correct. I said the 11/32's does not refer to thickness. It was meant to refer to OD.

Quote:
Maybe the 11/32 is a typo and should be 1-11/32?


There you go, you figured it out!
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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wesk
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Posts: 14227
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took the liberty to edit your post and change your photo arrangement from side to side to top & bottom. This makes the post easier to read by making it fit the screen better. On my home PC with a 17" x 10" screen The post was still wider and you had to scroll horizontally to read each sentence.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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RonD2
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Joined: Oct 02, 2014
Posts: 516
Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Wes. Wilco in the future.

Somehow, I don't think "I figured it out". Maybe "hot on the trail", but certainly not there yet. I can make do with the information about the CUSHIONS, but am still looking for evidence of the actual true and correct dimensions of the WASHERS. Even if I had that information, they probably can't be bought anyway (never seen any NOS advertised). My goofy cut washers might have to do until that nugget surfaces....

I'm not building a show queen truck. I'm just trying to put forth a reasonable effort to make it as close as possible. I'm sorry to keep trying your patience with me as I stumble-bumble my way through obscure issues.....

I think what really amazes me is that with 5,000+ members and more than 65,000 posts covering more than a decade, I can't seem to search and find a clear answer. Am I really the first knucklehead to trip on this stuff? Tell me it isn't so! Shocked
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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
1954 M100 Dunbar Kapple M750759 dod 1-54

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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wesk
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Joined: Apr 04, 2005
Posts: 14227
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Am I really the first knucklehead to trip on this stuff? Tell me it isn't so! Shocked


I really can't confirm that but you may be right!!!

Actually you simply have not completed your research! The answers you want are in several books, not just ORD 9 SNL G-740 dated 1955 or TM 9-8012 dated 1956. You have many more to let your fingers do the walking thru!!!

ORD 9 SNL G-740 dated 1951
ORD 8 SNL G-740 dated 1956
TM 9-804 Dated 1950
TM9-1804A dated 1951

To get as serious about your project as you do you cannot afford not to have these on your desk.


In TM 9-804 dated 1950


In TM 9-1804A dated 1951


The 51 ORD 9 Add's the sizes to your research


The ORD 8 adds the sizes PLUS the FSN and/or NSN.

What, pray, can the FSN/NSN do for me? Well if you google it you get all of this data:

Quote:
NSN 5310-00-044-6485 Washer, Flat
https://www.newcenturycomponents.com/nsn/5310-00-044-6485
MFG Part Numbers: MILW1085TYPEA, 446485, FF-W-92B, 446485, 446485
Cross Reference Parts for NSN 5310-00-044-6485
MFG Part Number ISC RNVC RNCC HCC MSDS SADC DAC
MILW1085TYPEA
3 9 3 E
446485
3 9 5 X
FF-W-92B
3 2 5 E
446485
3 1 C 9 1
446485
3 1 4 5

Part Information for NSN 5310-00-044-6485 (5310000446485)
Item Name: WASHER,FLAT
Federal Supply Class (FSC): 5310
NIIN: 00-044-6485 (000446485)
Definition: A washer having a centrally located hole with a solid or laminated
cross-section and two flat parallel bearing surfaces. the hole must
be 75 percent or less than the largest dimension and the bearing
surface finish is greater than 32 microinch (0.8 micrometer). the
thickness cannot exceed 25 percent of the largest outside
dimension. when the largest outside dimension is less than
1/4 inch or 6mm, the thickness must be 0.006 inches (0.15mm)
or greater and for items 1/4 inch (6mm) or larger, the thickness
must be 0.016 inches (0.4mm) or greater. the maximum tolerance
is applied to dimensions and used as a determining factor. items
with separable lamination use shim. for items fabricated from
ceramic or electrically rated materials by specification or industry
standards use insulator (1), washer. excludes disk, valve, graphite
impregnated and lubricated items.
NMF Description: WASHER OR GASKETS, IRON OR STEEL,
Item Specifics
Federal Supply Class (FSC) Nuts And Washers
Center Hole Shape Style Round ABMX
Cross-sectional Shape Style Rectangular AAGR
Departure From Cited Document As modified by surface treatment ZZZW
Hole Diameter 0.490 inches minimum and 0.510 inches maximum AAUB
Material Steel comp 1010 overall or steel comp 1015 overall or
steel comp 1016 overall or steel comp 1018 overall or steel
comp 1019 overall or steel comp 1020 overall MATT
Nondefinitive Spec/std Data A type ZZZT
Overall Diameter 1.615 inches minimum and 1.635 inches maximum ADAV
Material Document And Classification Astm a108 assn std all material responses overall MDCL
Peripheral Shape Style Round ABMW
Surface Treatment Cadmium overall or zinc overall SFTT
Thickness 0.064 inches minimum and 0.104 inches maximum ABNM
Trade Control Compliance Schedule B Export Code: A ten position numeric code that identifies an item exported overseas. this unique identification code is assigned by the U.S. Census Bureau.
Schedule B Sch. B Description Demilitarization Classification ITAR Regulation
7318220000 Washers other than lock washers, iron or steel Non-usml/non-ccli - no demil or dod tsc required. department
of commerce may impose licensing requirements to certain destinations. (note 9). Unclassified Not ITAR Controlled
MOE / End Users Represents the subdivisions of a US governmental organization or an agency of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), and other friendly governments and international organizations participating in the federal catalog program.
Country / Entity Name MOE
Department Of The Army ZZ
Material & Special Handling Item material and handling information
Code Description Value Meaning
HMIRS N Indicates there is no data in the hmirs and the nsn is in a fsc not generally suspected
of containing hazardous materials.
Precious Metals Indicator U Precious metal content is unknown
Criticality Code X The item does not have a nuclear hardened feature or any other critical feature such
as tolerance, fit restriction or application.
Repairability Z This is a nonreparable item. if condemned or economically unserviceable, then
dispose at the level authorized replace the item.
National Motor Freight NMFC: A six position numeric code, which divides articles into groups or classes according to physical characteristics. The classification is based on truckloads vs. less than truckload.
Code Description Code Value Meaning
NMF Description NMFC 194160 Washer Or Gaskets, Iron Or Steel,
Less than a truck load rating LTL U 50.0
Water Commodity WCC 713 Metal hardware
Type of Cargo TCC Z No special type of cargo code applicable
Special Handling SHC 9 Other or no special handling required (sh)
Air Dimension Code ADC A Shipment is not a consolidation and does not exceed 84
inches in any dimension.
Air Commodity ACC B Construction materials: includes paint and related
materials, prefabricated building, wood products,
metal and composition materials and their products,
commercial hardware and miscellaneous items,
cement, asphalt, building maintenance materials.
Air Special Handling ASH Array No special handling required.
Item Identification | Nuts And Washers
5310-00-044-6485, A washer having a centrally located hole with a solid or laminated cross-section and two flat parallel bearing surfaces. the hole must be 75 percent or less than the largest dimension and the bearing surface finish is greater than 32 microinch (0.8 micrometer). the thickness cannot exceed 25 percent of the largest outside dimension. when the largest outside dimension is less than 1/4 inch or 6mm, the thickness must be 0.006 inches (0.15mm) or greater and for items 1/4 inch (6mm) or larger, the thickness must be 0.016 inches (0.4mm) or greater. the maximum tolerance is applied to dimensions and used as a determining factor. items with separable lamination use shim. for items fabricated from ceramic or electrically rated materials by specification or industry standards use insulator (1), washer. excludes disk, valve, graphite impregnated and lubricated items.
Supply Class (FSC) NSN Assignment NIIN Item Name Code (INC)
5310 Jan 01, 1963 000446485 13393 (Washer, Flat)

Flat Washers Cross Reference
FF-W-92B Cage Code 81348
446485 Cage Code 7X677
446485 Cage Code 21450
446485 Cage Code 24617
MILW1085TYPEA Cage Code 81349
Codes
COUNTRY CODE: 00
CIIC: U
DML: A
HMIC: N
MGMT CTRL: T2200X-
SOS: SMS
INC: 13393
PHRASE STATEMENT: WHEN EXHAUSTED USE 5310-00-637-9224
AAC: Y
CRITL CODE: X
DEMIL CODE: A
S A: DS
MGMT CTL: -------
NIIN ASGMT: 01-JAN-63
QUP: U
SLC: 0
UI: EA
CAGE: 24617
RNCC: 3
RNVC: 9
Management

Air Force
Fund SF – Stock fund applicable to items managed for the air force by the respective inventory control point.
Budget 9 – Air force decentrally managed
Material Management SX – Brac mmac for oc-alc
Price Validation N – The current standard price in the catalog management data (cmd) has not been analyzed or coded for lp/lm. -the price has not been analyzed or reviewed for accuracy. -zop or standard price challenges are permissible, but must be supported with adequate justification. however, if coded for local purchase (lp) or fabrication/manufacture as indicated with an (lm) acquisition advice code of l" or "f", the case must be evaluated locally where purchased or fabricated."

Air Force Management Code Definition
Fund A two position code that classifies an item into categories in terms of funding and budgeting.
Budget Identifies investment items to budget programs from which item is funded.
Material Management Identifies an item of supply to be managed by a specific activity manager.
Price Validation Indicates validity of the recorded unit price.

Army
Accounting Requirements X – Expendable item. an item of army property coded with an arc of ``x'' in the amdf. expendable items require no formal accountability after issue from a stock record account. commercial and fabricated items similar to items coded ``x'' in the amdf are considered expendable items.
Material Category 1 T – Industrial supplies (dla/gsa items)
Material Category 2 2 – Stock fund secondary items
Material Category 3 2 – Nonreparable items (exclusive of insurance and provisioning items). this code will be used to identify items which are not reparable.
Material Category 4 & 5 00 – Dla/gsa-managed items that cannot be identified to a specific army weapons systems/end item

Army Management Code Definition
Accounting Requirements Accounting Requirements Code (ARC): a one position alpha code that indicates the accountability of an item of supply.
Material Category 1 Material category and inventory manager.
Material Category 2 Appropriation and budget activity account.
Material Category 3 Management inventory segment.
Material Category 4 & 5 Specific group / generic category.
Similar parts: 5310-01-190-4621 5310-01-190-7913 5310-01-190-5629 5310-01-190-7404 5310-01-190-5801 5310-01-190-4496 5310-01-190-4614 5310-01-190-7471 5310-01-191-0315 5310-01-190-4622 5310-01-190-7578


_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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RonD2
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Joined: Oct 02, 2014
Posts: 516
Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes, as usual, your kindness and patience never fail to astound me. I'm embarrassed to thank you for spoon-feeding the baby!

I down-loaded the November 1951 ORD 9 here, and located a copy of TM9-804 (September 1950). Still searching for a copy of the ORD 8.

My apology for being lazy. Embarassed
_________________
Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
1954 M100 Dunbar Kapple M750759 dod 1-54

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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wesk
Site Administrator
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Joined: Apr 04, 2005
Posts: 14227
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome! A post without a question!!!!!

I sent you a link to all those pubs via your email addy.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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