Create an account Home  ·  ·  Forums  ·  ·  Articles  ·  ·  Downloads  ·  ·  Photo Gallery  
Login
Nickname

Password

Don't have an account yet? You can create one here.

Navigation
· Home
· Article Archive
· Article Submit
· Downloads
· FAQ
· Forums
· Members List
· Photo Gallery
· Private Messages
· Web Links
· Your Account

Search Articles



Forums

Wiper motor...which is the correct one?
Lead additive, one more question.
M31C mount with or without replica weapon
Backfire and Hesitation
Wanted: Steering column and shaft for M38-1952, or late CJ2A
2024 CT. MILITARY VEHICLE SHOW AND FLEA MARKET- JUNE 15,2024
Brake Line
How to link full size photos in posts
Clutch release bearing support cast tab for return spring
T90 case replacement required?

Willys M Jeeps Forums


willysmjeeps.com :: View topic - M38 24 volt electronic ignition
 Forum FAQForum FAQ   SearchSearch   UsergroupsUsergroups   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

M38 24 volt electronic ignition

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    willysmjeeps.com Forum Index -> Technical Knowledge Base
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Lyle
Member


Joined: Nov 01, 2017
Posts: 132
Location: Richmond, BC Canada

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 2:36 pm    Post subject: M38 24 volt electronic ignition Reply with quote

Can someone please post a picture showing how the leads are connected.

Specifically, how does the positive lead attached together with the existing positive lead??
_________________
Lyle
LT-RCEME, Retired
________________
Jeep Rubicon, 2015
M38 CDN, 1952
M416, 1968
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
wesk
Site Administrator
Site Administrator


Joined: Apr 04, 2005
Posts: 16225
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Lyle,

I can be a stickler for the details sometimes. By that I mean I prefer to call electronic ignition, systems that actually control the spark as well as other operating parameters of an internal combustion engine by managing the entire engine electronically. There are three systems for the Willys/Kaiser 134 series engines that are often confused with full blown "Electronic Ignition Systems", which by the way did not make their entry into production automobiles until the mid 1970's, and they have a lot more control over the engine.

1 - The aftermarket Pertronics system which is simply a hall effect electrical contact replacement system That replaces the mechanical points with an Electrical hall effect RELAY This allows less frequent maintenance of the ignition system. Often this system is bragged on to in some magical way increase performance but in reality all you have accomplished is to extend the necessary visit frequency to the distributor resulting in more troublefree miles of service.



2 - Was the early Prestolite mechanical points replacement Electrical Hall Effect Relay System which functions the same as the Pertronics and was introduced on the Early M151 jeeps. Often this system is bragged on to in some magical way increase performance but in reality all you have accomplished is to extend the necessary visit frequency to the distributor resulting in more troublefree miles of service.

3 - Was the late syle Swiss Controls mechanical points replacement Electrical Hall Effect Relay System which functions the same as the Pertronics and was introduced on the later M151 jeeps. Often this system is bragged on to in some magical way increase performance but in reality all you have accomplished is to extend the necessary visit frequency to the distributor resulting in more troublefree miles of service.



Notice the three technical descriptions of the three systems is virtually identicle!

I know, you are probably getting bored with this lesson however I thought it was important for us to properly answer your question since we need to know which system you are referring to.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lyle
Member


Joined: Nov 01, 2017
Posts: 132
Location: Richmond, BC Canada

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you...... I just needed to confirm how and where to connect the positive.

Quick question, since the Pertronics MV-141A only wants 4-6 volts, I’ve calculated that a 6 ohm ballast resistor in the ignition wire prior to distributor?
_________________
Lyle
LT-RCEME, Retired
________________
Jeep Rubicon, 2015
M38 CDN, 1952
M416, 1968
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
wesk
Site Administrator
Site Administrator


Joined: Apr 04, 2005
Posts: 16225
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last time I looked which was some time ago Pertronics offered a 24V unit. Why are you adapting voltages to reduce to 4 or 6 volts? The Pertronics MV-141A instructions do not require that. The instructions do point out the kit is designed to function with a coil that has built in resistance of 7 to 8 Ohms. The coil in your IAU series distributor has an internal resistance of 5.3 to 5.5 Ohms. Perhaps you are trying to raise that figure a couple of ohms???

http://support.pertronix.com/file.php?key=DmLZ1dr3ogK_NCerRp9ZVRi28srLRAOQ&expires=1558310400&signature=c26234cc65be39597e779a520306cca9fe3543e1

The wire #12 routing does not change just because you are using an electrical Hall effect relay to replace your points. The #12 lead sets piggy back on the coil + post with the Pertronics red wire. There are some minor adjustments if you decide to drop the noise filter capacitor in addition to the condenser. If you look in my photo album under Ignition Systems you'll see a suggested method for eliminating the radio noise filter capacitor.

Quote:
GTIN Code: 694342534899
MFG. Part #: MV-141A
EO#: D-57-22
Info
For over thirty years, the Ignitor has proven itself in applications ranging from race cars to tractors. The Ignitor replaces breaker point and troublesome factory electronic ignitions with a dependable, self contained and maintenance free electronic ignition system. The Ignitor has been called the "stealth" ignition because of its quick installation and nearly undetectable presence under your distributor cap.
Features
• Operating Voltage: 8-V to 28-V DC
• Temperature Range: -50 to 300F
• RPM Range: 0 to 15,000 RPM
• Can be used with most point-type coils, optimal performance achieved when used with our Flame-Thrower 40,000 volt coil.
• Works great in stock point-type distributors as a trigger for multi-spark CD ignitions, eliminating the need for expensive aftermarket distributors.
• No complicated wiring makes installation easy.
• A solid-state electronic ignition system. "Never change points again!"
Application
All M39, and M422 V4 (24-volt system, Mil-Spec Waterproof Ignition, Not for use with solid core spark plug wires)
Notes
• PerTronix MV-141A Ignitor Autolite 4 cyl 24 Volt Negative Ground
• Delivers twice the voltage to the spark plugs, increasing horsepower, fuel economy, and spark plug life
• 2:1 improvement over points in current fall time for increased coil output
• Rotating cobalt magnets trigger a Hall Effect integrated circuit . ...no points to burn, ...no moving parts to wear out
• Epoxy molding makes our module impervious to dirt, oil, grease and moisture
• Fits entirely inside the distributor
• No "black box to clutter the engine compartment
• Stable timing ...no need for any adjustments
• Will trigger most multi-spark CD ignitions
• Available for 6 and 12-volt negative and positive ground systems
• Legal in all 50 states and Canada (C.A.R.B. E.O. #D-57-2)
Charts
Pertronix Ignitor I/II/III Comparison Chart

Some parts are not legal for use in California or other states with similar laws/regulations



https://pertronix.com/pertronix-mv-141a-ignitor-autolite-4-cyl-24-volt-negative-ground.html#product_tabs_review_tabbed
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lyle
Member


Joined: Nov 01, 2017
Posts: 132
Location: Richmond, BC Canada

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes:

Thx for your info.

The minimum of 7-8 ohms with a resistive type coil.

I called Pertronics tech support and they stated that the MV-141A’s optimal voltage at the igniter (pick-up) is at 4-6 volts and that a ballast resistor must be used to reduce the igniter’s signal Voltage to that level.

Coils, I know the document from Autolite if there is an internal resistance and if so what value it is.

You are quoting the CO type coil with that internal resistance.

I have the CT type coil and it has zero internal resistance. Therefore I need to add the ballast resistor with a value the reduce the existing 24 volts to 4-6 volts.

Lyle u
_________________
Lyle
LT-RCEME, Retired
________________
Jeep Rubicon, 2015
M38 CDN, 1952
M416, 1968
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
wesk
Site Administrator
Site Administrator


Joined: Apr 04, 2005
Posts: 16225
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems odd that a CT coil used in a M38 at 24V without any in line resistance can be suddenly connected to a ballast resistor reducing it's input voltage by 18V's and expected to still perform adequately for the same spark plugs!
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lyle
Member


Joined: Nov 01, 2017
Posts: 132
Location: Richmond, BC Canada

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes:

No magic. I simply looked at the document http://willysmjeeps.com/downloads/Ignition.Coil.24.Volt.pdf
You sent me. I confirmed both visually and with ohm meter.
_________________
Lyle
LT-RCEME, Retired
________________
Jeep Rubicon, 2015
M38 CDN, 1952
M416, 1968
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
wesk
Site Administrator
Site Administrator


Joined: Apr 04, 2005
Posts: 16225
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point was your CT coil functioned admirably for years without any in line resistance and now Pertronics wants you to insert enough new resistance with an add on ballast resister that it's voltage will be reduced by 18V and we are still to expect the same admirable performance that your CT coil had before this change you are about make????

I suspected the 24 V was more than they wanted at their ignitor but why would you reduce the voltage to both their ignitor and the coil???? It would be simple enough to leave the coil as it originally was , with no in line resistance and add the inline resistance only to the power lead going to the ignitor!
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lyle
Member


Joined: Nov 01, 2017
Posts: 132
Location: Richmond, BC Canada

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes:

Just to add the 24 volt distributor was packed 6/1965
and I was the first one to open it up.

So, factory fresh
_________________
Lyle
LT-RCEME, Retired
________________
Jeep Rubicon, 2015
M38 CDN, 1952
M416, 1968
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Lyle
Member


Joined: Nov 01, 2017
Posts: 132
Location: Richmond, BC Canada

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Pertronics (this time):

“The ignitor red wire is looking for the 24-volts. So, if you have added a external resistor then you will need to run the wire out of the distributor to the high voltage side of the resistor. I'm not sure how to do this with the waterproof distributor. You will need to figure it out. But you must have 6.0 ohms of resistance in your ignition circuit.
The original coils had 6.0 ohms of internal resistance.

Now ALL coils have internal resistance. They come in different values but all working coils have something. You do need to use a digital ohm meter, an old needle meter will not read the resistance value of a coil. When reading the resistance value you need to have the meter set on 200 ohm. This will be the lowest setting on the digital ohm meter normally. You need to check the coil again and check the ballast resistor if you are using one.

You need to be sure you are getting up to 6.0 ohms. If you do not have the correct resistance the ignitor will burn out.
_________________
Lyle
LT-RCEME, Retired
________________
Jeep Rubicon, 2015
M38 CDN, 1952
M416, 1968
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    willysmjeeps.com Forum Index -> Technical Knowledge Base All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2001 phpBB Group
Forums ©

 



PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.