Create an account Home  ·  ·  Forums  ·  ·  Articles  ·  ·  Downloads  ·  ·  Photo Gallery  
Login
Nickname

Password

Don't have an account yet? You can create one here.

Navigation
· Home
· Article Archive
· Article Submit
· Downloads
· FAQ
· Forums
· Members List
· Photo Gallery
· Private Messages
· Web Links
· Your Account

Search Articles



Forums

1955 M38A1
Registration questons
Brake Light Switch
M170 battery cables
6 volt waterproof distributor ??
How to connect a 12 V tach.
Radio installations
M38A1s used by The Civil Defense
Willys overland service bulletin tappet settings
M170 brackets

Willys M Jeeps Forums


willysmjeeps.com :: View topic - Power to starter when switch is off
 Forum FAQForum FAQ   SearchSearch   UsergroupsUsergroups   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Power to starter when switch is off

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    willysmjeeps.com Forum Index -> Technical Knowledge Base
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Madriver1968
Member


Joined: Nov 27, 2016
Posts: 49
Location: Washington DC

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:13 pm    Post subject: Power to starter when switch is off Reply with quote

Hi all, I have a 1954 M38a1 and Iíve just installed a new wiring harness I purchased from Pete Dabella. System is 24 volt, and Iíve made no modifications other than a solid state voltage regulator. No accessories and I have not installed any circuit breakers. Everything is wired per the wiring diagram in the manual and Iíve carefully matched all numbers on the harness.

Today, I decided to try everything. I turned in the switch, and all lights and panel lights work as they should. I pushed the starter and the engine turned over. I was quite pleased until I turned the on off dash switch off, and pushed the starter foot switch, just to check that everything was off. Unfortunately, the starter engages!

I removed the switch, thinking it might be the problem, but even with the on off switch completely unplugged and removed from the vehicle, if I push the starter foot switch, the Jeep turned over!

I clearly have a short somewhere. Any suggestions of where to look would be most appreciated. Thanks!!
_________________
Bill S.

1954 M38A1 (#71757, Feb. 1954)
1959 Austin Healey 3000
1964 Jaguar E-Type Coupe
1964 Sunbeam Tiger
1968 Triumph TR-250
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OKCM38CDN
Member


Joined: Feb 17, 2012
Posts: 355
Location: Del City, OK

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is always power to the starter. The foot switch opens taking the power off the motor in the normal position. When engaged (Pushed) it supplies power to the starter and turns the motor over, if the ignition switch is turned on the motor will start. If the ignition switch is not on the motor will not start.

This is the way even modern cars work except in modern cars the foot switch is replaced with a solenoid that engages the motor to turn the motor over...

All is working as should in your jeep. Look at the schematic in the manuals...
_________________
Hal, KB1ZQ
TSGT, USAF (Ret)
1952 M-38 CDN CAR 52-31313
1952 M-100 Strick #104
1951 Willys Wagon (For Sale)
1954 Willys M38A1 (Restoration Started)
Tornado Alley
Del City, OK
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
wesk
Site Administrator
Site Administrator


Joined: Apr 04, 2005
Posts: 14345
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You were close Hal but the M38 is not like the modern cars.

In the M38:

The switch on the dash is a master switch and only applies power when on to accessories and the ignition system coil.

The starter switch is always hot. (Not the dash switch the one on top of the starter.)

The starter drive is engaged manually with the flywheel using the foot pedal. The foot pedal is adjusted so that when the starter kick pedal completely engages the drive with the flywheel then it bumps the switch contacts closed and they turn the starter motor.

So mad driver this is one reason that it is a good idea to install a battery disconnect switch on your M38. This way when the kids jump in and want to play "push the starter pedal" you don't have to worry about the jeep leaping forward because the starter is turning the engine and the engine is turning the tranny which you left in gear to hold the jeep still but now the jeep is lurching forward! The other good reason for the battery disconnect is it will save your ignition coil when you forget to turn the dash switch off.


In modern cars :

The switch on the dash is used to turn on accessories, power the ignition system and close the starter solenoid (relay).

The starter has no power to it when the dash switch is in acc - off - on. When the dash switch is moved to Start position then the solenoid (relay) closes and power is delivered to the starter.

Once the starter is spinning it's rotational motion spins the starter drive towards the flywheel to engage it and turn the engine.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
4x4M38
Member


Joined: May 30, 2014
Posts: 2906
Location: Texas Hill Country

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes,
Is the later starter (129 tooth flywheel) different with respect to the pedal pushing in the starter to engage the flywheel? I had to replace my Bendix in my later starter. Does the early starter not have a Bendix?

A battery disconnect is a good idea for several reasons.
_________________
Brian
1950 M38
MC11481
http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=album372&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Madriver1968
Member


Joined: Nov 27, 2016
Posts: 49
Location: Washington DC

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks gents! I appreciate the info. I was confused because the two old cars I have that have separate on-off switches and starter buttons donít work that way. On both my Healey and my Jag, the starter buttons are not always hot - if the on-off switch isnít turned to on (in those cases itís the key, which only has two positions, on and off), then pushing hr starter button does nothing.

First thing I do with any old car is install a battery cut off. Iím always amazed how many guys I see at meets that donít have them. Seems like asking for trouble.
_________________
Bill S.

1954 M38A1 (#71757, Feb. 1954)
1959 Austin Healey 3000
1964 Jaguar E-Type Coupe
1964 Sunbeam Tiger
1968 Triumph TR-250
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wesk
Site Administrator
Site Administrator


Joined: Apr 04, 2005
Posts: 14345
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is the later starter (129 tooth flywheel) different with respect to the pedal pushing in the starter to engage the flywheel?


Not really. The pedal still does the same thing. It pushes the starter overunning clutch/pinion drive into engagement with the flywheel making the switch close at the same moment the drive is beginning to mesh the pinion with the flywheel and then the starter spins.

It is common for folks to be tempted to refer to all starter drives with the same name "Bendix" . Also most folks do not realize that the Famous Auto-engage Bendix Drives eventually fell from the favor of the automakers because of it's heavy gear tooth wear issues and now most modern cars use a dual purpose solenoid mounted to the starter that when power is applied to these newer solenoids the shaft, as it starts to move to close the electrical contacts also moves an overunning clutch drive to engage the flywheel then closes the contacts spinning the starter.


_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    willysmjeeps.com Forum Index -> Technical Knowledge Base All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2001 phpBB Group
Forums ©

 



PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.