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M38 Fuel and oil gauges test

 
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Harleygaz
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:17 am    Post subject: M38 Fuel and oil gauges test Reply with quote

Hi

Neither gauge was working so ran a test by checking voltage from the sender terminal on the gauge to ground. Got 24 volts on each but no needle movement. I expected them to full deflection when straight to ground. Concluded that both were bad and got new ones. Same test on each of the new ones gave me 24 volts on the sender side but no needle movement. Am I right in thinking that grounding the sender terminal should give full deflection?
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wesk
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Gary,

I noticed there was nothing for sale in this post so I moved it from our "For Sale" board to our "Technical Board".

Are you using the specified service bulletin for troubleshooting military 24 volt gauges?

http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=46&min=10&orderby=titleA&show=10
4th one down from the top.
Quote:
TB 9-2300-228-20 Tactical Transport and Combat Vehicles:
Troubleshooting for Instrument Cluster Gages, Switches, Circuit Breakers, Sending Units and Related
Wiring dated 8 July 1960.

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Harleygaz
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Wes

I keep forgetting to look for the technical links. Iíll test the gauges again but I think maybe I didnít have the new ones grounded.
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wesk
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They way the gauges are wired they require both a case ground and a ground path thru the sender as well to function. It's unfortunate the Army never realized the poor quality ground one gets from a removable instrument cluster using 1/4 turn fasteners and lacking any ground strap between the flat steel panel insert and the tub! On most of my MV's I always added a ground strap and made sure the gauge retainer was unpainted and the back of the steel panel where the gauge retainer rests was unpainted.
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Harleygaz
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I tested them again and got no movement on either of the old gauges. Fuel gauge gave about 7 volts, oil p gauge showed 24. Tested both new gauges and got full deflection on both but with case ground and sender pin both grounded. The way I read the guide thatís not correct but at least I know they are working. Oil p sender measured 0.4 ohms and when I connected the new gauge I did see some movement on the needle but only to just about a needle width above 0. Iím hoping the sender is faulty otherwise I have almost no oil pressure Sad I. Checked fuel tank ground and it doesnít appear to be grounded at all so Iíll take a look at that tomorrow. One odd thing though, when I ran the engine with the oil p gauge connected the plastic case got very warm, should it do that?
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mdainsd
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those gauges are very sensitive to grounds. As Wes indicated, the best way to expect any sort of reliable operation is to add a dedicated ground from the instrument panel to the body. Equally important is body to frame and frame to engine ground straps.

Plastic cases? Are you using late replacement gauges as opposed to original metal cased gauges?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, Iíll try improving the ground on the panel and maybe rig a jumper to battery ground to be sure. Gauges are new ones from KW. I really wanted to use NOS with proper Douglas connectors but the price difference for NOS was just too much. 😒 If I could get replacement original gauges even used Iíd do that if I knew they had been tested OK.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a bit difficult to understand the presentation of your test results without some direct referencing to which test they are the result of. Perhaps you can copy the Quoted word doc and enter your test results in red then repast this word copy of TB 9-2300-228-20 in your next post?

Quote:
Troubleshooting for Military Standard Instrument Cluster Gauges
This information provided by Bob Westerman www.cj3a.info and www.willysmjeeps.com
Included here is most of Army TB 9-2300-228-20 Tactical Transport and Combat Vehicles: Troubleshooting for Instrument Cluster Gages, Switches, Circuit Breakers, Sending Units and Related Wiring dated 8 July 1960. The title seems a bit optimistic for the amount of information included. I also included a chart, at the end, showing actual resistance values I measured on operational components. If you have any comments, problems, or additional information please E-mail me. Click here for contact information.
Thanks Bob W.
Purpose and Scope__________________________________________________________________ 1
Procedure_________________________________________________________________________ 2
Ammeter __________________________________________________________________________3
Battery Indicator____________________________________________________________________4
Gages and Related Wiring_____________________________________________________________5
Sending Units______________________________________________________________________6






























1. Purpose and Scope. This bulletin provides organizational maintenance personnel with proper instructions for troubleshooting defective ammeters, battery indicators, fuel gages, oil pressure gages, temperature gages, sending units, and related electrical wiring. These instructions will supplement data contained in pertinent technical manuals.
2. Procedure. When any of the instrument gages, switches, circuit breakers, sending units, or related electrical wiring becomes inoperative, troubleshooting will be accomplished, as prescribed herein, to isolate the defective component or circuit.
3. Ammeter.
a. Check vehicle battery voltage. Charge or replace battery if voltage is not as prescribed in pertinent technical manual.
b. Check position of ammeter indicator hand, with all switches off. Ammeter indicator hand should indicate ZERO position of ammeter dial.
c. Turn headlights and any other accessories ON. Ammeter indicator hand should move to the left (discharge) side of ammeter dial.
d. Turn headlights and accessories OFF.
e. Turn ignition switch ON. Start and run engine at approximately 1,200 rpm. Ammeter indicator hand should move to the right (charge) side of ammeter dial.
f. If ammeter does not conform to reading outlined above, proceed as follows:
(1). Check generating system for amperage and voltage output, as listed in vehicle technical manuals. Adjust or replace components as necessary as prescribed in pertinent technical manuals.
(2) Disconnect either wire from ammeter and connect it to the positive lead of a voltmeter and ground the negative lead of voltmeter. Voltmeter should indicate battery voltage.
(3)Disconnect wire from voltmeter and connect it to ammeter.
(4) Disconnect the other wire from ammeter and perform the same test. If either or both wires do not indicate battery voltage, repair or replace voltage regulator or ammeter lead as necessary. Caution: The circuit from the voltage regulator to the ammeter is not protected by a circuit breaker. Therefore, when removing wires from ammeter do not allow them to contact vehicle ground as damage to the wires will occur. If ammeter does not conform to readings indicated above at conclusion of tests, replace ammeter as prescribed in pertinent technical manual.
4. Battery Indicator
a. Check vehicle battery voltage. Charge or replace battery if voltage is not as prescribed in pertinent technical manual.
b. With ignition switch OFF battery indicator should bear to extreme left side of dial.
c. With ignition switch ON battery indicator should move to the yellow portion of the dial.
d. Start and run engine at approximately 1200 rpm or higher, battery indicator needle should move to the green portion of the dial.
e. If battery indicator does not conform to reading outlined above, proceed as follows:
(1) Turn ignition switch OFF.
(2) Disconnect wire at battery indicator and connect it to the positive lead of a voltmeter. With the negative lead of the voltmeter grounded and the ignition switch ON, voltmeter should indicate battery voltage.
(3) Start and run engine at high revolutions per minute, voltmeter should indicate generator voltage charge as specified in vehicle technical manual.
(4) If voltmeter does not indicate generator voltage charge as specified in vehicle technical manual, adjust or replace components of the generating system, as necessary, as prescribed in pertinent technical manual.
(5) If voltmeter indicates generator voltage charge as specified in the vehicle technical manual and battery indicator does not conform to test in a through d above, replace battery indicator as prescribed in pertinent technical manual.

5. Gages and Related Wiring
a. Check vehicle battery voltage. Charge or replace battery if voltage is not as prescribed in pertinent technical manual.
b. Check battery cables and terminals for good condition. Repair or replace battery cables and terminals, as required. Be sure that they are properly secured.
c. Disconnect wire from ignition switch to gage being tested at gage, and connect wire to positive lead of voltmeter.
d. With ignition switch ON, ground negative lead of voltmeter (B, fig 1) to vehicle ground, voltmeter should indicate battery voltage. Note. If lower or zero reading is indicated,check circuit for loose or broken connections. Repair as required.
e. Remove voltmeters negative lead from vehicle ground and connect to case of gage (C, fig. 1), voltmeter should indicate battery voltage. Note. This check is important. If case of gage is not properly grounded, gage will not operate.
f. Turn ignition switch OFF.
g. Disconnect voltmeter positive lead from ignition switch-to-gage wire and connect wire to gage.
h. Disconnect wire from gage to sending unit at gage.
i. Connect suitable jumper wire to sending unit side of gage.
j. Turn ignition switch ON.
k. With jumper wire grounded to vehicle (D, fig. 1), the gages should indicate the following: Temperature gage Maximum temperature
Oil pressure gage Zero pressure
Fuel gage Empty
l. Remove jumper wire from ground (E, fig. 1), the gages should indicate the following: Temperature gage Zero temperature
Oil pressure gage Maximum pressure
Fuel gage Full
Note: If gage does not conform to reading outlined in k and l above, replace gage in accordance with pertinent technical manual. If gage readings conform with this test, proceed with steps m through r below.
m. Turn ignition switch OFF.
n. Remove jumper wire from gage and connect wire from sending unit to gage.
o. Disconnect wire from sending unit to gage at sending unit.
p. Turn ignition ON.
q. Ground wire removed from sending unit (F, fig. 1), the gage should indicate the following: Temperature gage Maximum temperature
Oil pressure gage Zero pressure
Fuel gage Empty
If gage does not conform to reading outlined above, repair or replace wire from gage to sending unit.
r. Turn ignition switch OFF. Connect wire from gage to sending unit.
Note: Electrical gages indicate an approximate reading, for accurate readings, it is recommended using master gages connected to vehicle.
6. Sending Units.
a. To test function of sending units, an ohmmeter with 0- to 7,000-ohm range is recommended. The following procedure applies to any sending unit being tested.
b. Disconnect wire from gage to sending unit at sending unit.
c. Connect positive lead of ohmmeter to sending unit and negative lead of ohmmeter to vehicle ground. (G, fig. 1). Caution: Do not connect ohmmeter to ignition circuit and turn ignition switch ON as ohmmeter will be damaged.
(1)Temperature gage sending unit.
(a) If ohmmeter indicates a zero reading when engine is cold, replace sending unit. Sending unit should indicate high resistance.
(b) Start engine, ohmmeter will indicate a lower reading as engine is warming up.
(c) Stop engine, ohmmeter will indicate a high reading as engine is cooling.
(d) Replace sending unit if readings are not as indicated in b and c above.
(2) Oil pressure gage sending unit.
(a) The ohmmeter should indicate 0 to 1 ohm reading with engine stopped, if ohmmeter does not indicate this reading or excess 1 ohm, replace sending unit.
(b) Start engine, ohmmeter should indicate a higher reading, if a higher reading is not indicated, replace sending unit.
(3) Fuel gage sending unit.
(a) Check ground between fuel tank and vehicle with an ohmmeter, zero reading should be obtained. If the fuel tank is not grounded to the vehicle, the sending unit will not operate.
(b) The ohmmeter should indicate a reading between zero and 40 ohms, depending on the amount of fuel in the tank. If the ohmmeter indicates a reading higher than 40 ohms replace the sending unit.
(c) The ohmmeter should indicate a higher reading as fuel tank is filled and a lower reading as the fuel is withdrawn. If the sending unit does not conform to this test, replace the sending unit.
(d) To test inaccessible sending units and electrical wire from gage to sending unit, omit procedure in b and c above and proceed as follows:
1 Disconnect wire from gage to sending unit at gage.
2 Connect positive lead of ohmmeter to wire from sending unit and ohmmeter negative lead to vehicle ground.
3 Follow procedures outlined in c(1) through (3) above for sending unit being tested.
(e) Defective sending units will be replaced as prescribed in pertinent technical manuals.







Chart of resistance checks done on operational components. All resistance checks are done with the component out of the circuit.


Temperature Sending Unit - resistance to yield corresponding gauge readings




2000 ohms = 120F
900 ohms = 180F
450 ohms = 220F
300 ohms = 260F


Fuel Level Sending Unit - resistance to yield corresponding gauge readings

30 ohms = Full
15 ohms = Half
0 ohms = Empty



Oil Pressure Sending Unit (120 psi gauge) - resistance to yield corresponding gauge readings


0 ohms = 0psi
12 ohms = 30psi
30 ohms = 60psi
50 ohms = 90psi
90 ohms = 120psi
Divide psi readings by 2 for 60 psi gauges


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Wes K
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Harleygaz
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did some more tests today and Iím not sure if itís good news or bad news.

Connected my Ohm meter directly to the output pin in the OP sender
Got a reading of 0.4 ohms
Started engine
Idle reading fluctuated but was around 0.5 to 1.0 ohms
Revved up to about half throttle and got about 140 ohms!
Full throttle gave a maximum of 198 ohms and steady at about 180 ohms

Iím happy the resistance went up which from the procedure above means that I have oil pressure and good pressure at that but the numbers are way too high.

Iím guessing itís the original OP sender, if so it would be a 120psi unit. Would that make a difference?
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Harleygaz
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should add that when I tried to ground to the engine block I got no reading (meter stayed at 1). When I got a ground to the tub is when I got these readings.
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wesk
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be much more helpfull if you published test results by copying the test item itself and pasting it on a document then then filling in the blanks with your results.

IE:
Quote:
a. To test function of sending units, an ohmmeter with 0- to 7,000-ohm range is recommended. The following procedure applies to any sending unit being tested.
b. Disconnect wire from gage to sending unit at sending unit.
c. Connect positive lead of ohmmeter to sending unit and negative lead of ohmmeter to vehicle ground. (G, fig. 1). Caution: Do not connect ohmmeter to ignition circuit and turn ignition switch ON as ohmmeter will be damaged.

(2) Oil pressure gage sending unit.
(a) The ohmmeter should indicate 0 to 1 ohm reading with engine stopped, if ohmmeter does not indicate this reading or excess 1 ohm, replace sending unit. Got a reading of 0.4 ohms
(b) Start engine, ohmmeter should indicate a higher reading, if a higher reading is not indicated, replace sending unit. Idle reading fluctuated but was around 0.5 to 1.0 ohms
Revved up to about half throttle and got about 140 ohms!
Full throttle gave a maximum of 198 ohms and steady at about 180 ohms



If this is too much for you then try referencing the Test number then post your result. IE:

6c(2) (a) Got a reading of 0.4 ohms

6c (2) (b) Idle reading fluctuated but was around 0.5 to 1.0 ohms
Revved up to about half throttle and got about 140 ohms!
Full throttle gave a maximum of 198 ohms and steady at about 180 ohms
____________________________________________________________

To answer your questions. The oil press sender must match it's gauge. 60 PSI sender is only used with a 60 PSI gauge and a 120 PSI sender is only used with a 120 PSI gauge.

The part numbers are on the units so all you need to do is compare part numbers to my chart:

Quote:
Senders matching gauges

Senders

120 PSI Ė AC 1507492 (Early A1), SW 506-B (Early A1), ORD 7728856 (Early A1), WO 800213 (Early A1),

60 PSI - MS24538-1, AC 1507980, ORD 7954231, FSN 6620-634-8945
MS24538-1 (Late A1), AC 1507980 (Late A1), ORD 7954231 (Late A1), FSN 6620-634-8945 (Late
A1), AL EOF11993 (Late A1), WO 809820 (Late A1)


Gauges

120 PSI - AC 1507491 (w/ext/resistor), ORD 7728853 (w/ext/resistor), WO 118104 (w/ext/resistor),
AC 1507680 (w/int/resistor), ORD 7728853 (w/int/resistor), WO 119085 (w/int/resistor),
AC 1507680 (Early A1), SW 505B (Early A1), ORD 7728853 (Early A1), WO 119085 (Early A1),

60 PSI Ė AC 1507975, ORD 7954230, FSN 6620-335-9508, AC 1508003 (Late A1), SW 505P (Late A1), ORD 8366380 (Late A1), WO 811245 (Late A1),


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Harleygaz
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx Wes

The tests were as you identified them and the results were as per test 6c (2) b, the ohms went up. My question now is regardless of which gauge I have would an ohm reading of nearly 200 indicate a faulty OP sender or is that value acceptable?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The test parameters were clearly established:

Quote:
(b) Start engine, ohmmeter should indicate a higher reading, if a higher reading is not indicated, replace sending unit.


The test only requires a higher reading to be a passing score. Are not 140 & 198 higher readings?

Quote:
Oil Pressure Sending Unit (120 psi gauge) - resistance to yield corresponding gauge readings


0 ohms = 0psi
12 ohms = 30psi
30 ohms = 60psi
50 ohms = 90psi
90 ohms = 120psi
Divide psi readings by 2 for 60 psi gauges


Quote:
My question now is regardless of which gauge I have would an ohm reading of nearly 200 indicate a faulty OP sender or is that value acceptable?


Actually we cannot draw a conclusion by assuming "regardless which gauge I have" because the validity of the OHM reading depends on which Gauge & sender combo you have. Based on your readings they are way to high for a 120 PSI set and could be just fine for a 60 PSI set. Maybe this is a good time to tell us what part numbers you found on your sender and gauge!!!!!

Whenever I suspect an error in my military gauges the first step for me is to always insert a known good direct reading test gauge in that system. In this case I would have attached a direct reading oil pressure gauge (the type that is inserted into the plumbing system without any remote senders). Even when I fire up a fresh rebuilt engine I do not rely on the old military gauges and senders. I simply plumb in direct reading Oil Pressure and Coolant Temp gauges.
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Harleygaz
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx Wes. I did understand that higher reading is good as rpm goes up but I read your chart as expecting 90 as the highest reading hence my concern. I donít have a direct reading OP gauge I can use and with the OP sender still on the block I canít see the part number. The gauge is new from KW, not the NOS one, the repro one. Iíll fix the grounding from engine to frame and dash panel to tub and see what I get.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your troubleshooting results depend on accuracy which includes positively identifying which gauge and sender you are using. Without doing this your troubleshooting results become unreliable.

If this is the gauge you bought from KW:





Then your sender must be the correct sender for this gauge. It reuqires a ORD# 8376490, NSN 6620-00-814-4770 , MS24538-1, AC# 1507980
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