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Naugha Member
Joined: Apr 01, 2020 Posts: 409 Location: Ocala, Florida
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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:48 pm Post subject: u joints don’t fit. |
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Today I attempted to install new (no-name/cheap) u joints on my M38 project. I watched all the videos, looked at several diagrams and dusted off my HF shop press. The yokes and retaining ring grooves were cleaned and given a spot of grease. When problems arose I Google searched the site but was unable to find a thread on my problem.
* The u-joints smoothly pressed in flush with each side of the yoke. The cap on one side was then pressed further in and the retaining ring was set into its groove. Fine. Just like in the videos.
* But..... there was not enough travel length left for the second cap to be pressed below its retaining ring groove.
* I checked my alignment and pushed the HF shop press to max thinking it just needed more persuasion. After cracking two u joints on two different yokes I tossed everything in the can..... no pics. #&$@%#@$&
Is going cheap with the unbranded u joints probably the source of my problem? The ad said “fits M38” and I have often used the supplier.
What u joint brand/source is known fit the M38?
Or is user error lurking somewhere in my method? _________________ Don Alvarez
Retired HS Teacher
Central Florida
M38 Project |
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RonD2 Member
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 1926 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
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Naugha Member
Joined: Apr 01, 2020 Posts: 409 Location: Ocala, Florida
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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:04 pm Post subject: Prop Pics |
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Here are the props. The new u joints did not fit either one.
The props and old u joints are marked Spicer.
I will make measurements of the yokes and replacement u joints on my next trip to the Barn. Thanks, Don
_________________ Don Alvarez
Retired HS Teacher
Central Florida
M38 Project |
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4x4M38 Member
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
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wesk Site Administrator
Joined: Apr 04, 2005 Posts: 16265 Location: Wisconsin
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Naugha Member
Joined: Apr 01, 2020 Posts: 409 Location: Ocala, Florida
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:58 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Is there any chance a roller came out during assembly?
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I don't think so, but I have the other two u joints and may try again. The first time it happened I had added some grease inside the cap to insure the pins stayed in place but later thought the extra lube was causing a hydraulic problem. I removed the grease fitting and some lube came out under pressure but no luck. The second u joint got no extra lube but I never saw any pin movement.
Quote: | You first accurately measure all parts of the shaft assemblies you have and compare them to the Willys blueprints in my photo album. |
Will do. When I got home and cooled down it dawned on me to measure the distance between the lower edges of the ring retainer grooves to determine the maximum u joint length the yokes can accommodate and compare that distance with the original Spicer joints and my cheapo unbranded joints.
_________________ Don Alvarez
Retired HS Teacher
Central Florida
M38 Project |
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RonD2 Member
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 1926 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Don,
I'm guessing that your cheapo unbranded u-joints didn't come in a box that was marked with a part number either? It stinks when vendors sell new parts without any sort of packaging to identify the maker and part number, and even if you ask, they can't, or worse, won't tell you. Sometimes I can understand this for parts that are unique to the M38, but not for common parts like U-joints that are otherwise available most anywhere.
Along with the blueprints, the M38 Reference Guide has 3-4 pages of pretty good prop shaft descriptions, including some dimensions and identifying features.
My M38 came to me with good U-joints so I can't confirm from personal experience what the correct part number for the M38 actually is, but some research seems to point to the Spicer 5-153X and 5-1310-1X, both commonly available on-line or at local auto parts stores, prices from $13 to $22 each. If you google "Spicer 5-153X" you'll get hits that give the dimensions for these U-joints that you should be able to compare with your old joints.
See the dimensions here: https://www.danaaftermarket.com/spicer-automotive/automotive-driveshaft/universal-joints/part/universal-joint/5-153X?partType=PART&catalog=PIMS_NA
There's lot of good info literature on that site, lube recommendations, torque specs, replacement u-bolt kits, etc. _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
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Naugha Member
Joined: Apr 01, 2020 Posts: 409 Location: Ocala, Florida
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:28 pm Post subject: Measurements, Specs and more frustration. |
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The Spicer 5-135x u joint spec (cap to cap) length is 3.219".
My unbranded joints by direct measure are 3.22" +/- .005' ... the same.
The distance between the inner lock ring groove edges of my yokes by direct measure is 3.15" +/- .01".
3.22" > 3.15" .... close but no cigar.
Neither my unbranded joint nor the Spicer 5-135x will fit.
3.22" - 3.15" = .07" too long .... which agrees with what I see in that when I press one end of the u joint just below the locking ring groove on one side of my yokes ..... the other end of the u joint is flush with the surface of the other side of the yoke.
I see the Spicer u joint and yoke retaining groove (dotted line) in the second blueprint but do not see measurements indicating the ‘fit’ values I found by direct measurement.
I am taking the props to my mechanic guy this morning. He will probably get a good laugh then explain where I went wrong.
This is why people drink. _________________ Don Alvarez
Retired HS Teacher
Central Florida
M38 Project
Last edited by Naugha on Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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4x4M38 Member
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
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RonD2 Member
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 1926 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Brian,
Might be premature to say the yoke is out of spec?.....still trying to determine if it is in fact original Willys M38 shaft and yokes or not. The blueprints should have the dims but they're kinda hard to read....still examining them.
Don's photo's are hard to see as well --- do they look like yokes might have been replaced? Has he finished measuring the rest of the dims? _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
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wesk Site Administrator
Joined: Apr 04, 2005 Posts: 16265 Location: Wisconsin
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RonD2 Member
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 1926 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Wes. Blowing it up is a lot easier on the eyes. We've been waiting for you to wade in here and straighten us out.
I still can't find the dim between the snap ring grooves, but I might be blind.
Interesting note on the early drawing --- that the bearing races get tack welded in position.
I'm thankful that those drawings are available in this forum. Great stuff found nowhere else! _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
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Naugha Member
Joined: Apr 01, 2020 Posts: 409 Location: Ocala, Florida
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:23 pm Post subject: Update |
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Oops. Right. .07”
I went down to the mechanic guy and we walked across the street to see the AutoZone supply manager. The unbranded u joints do measure within the specs of the Spicer joints for the M38 so it’s probably not the fault of the joint.
Measuring that distance between the retaining grooves with the depth probe on the end of a digital caliper is a little more tricky... although the AutoZone manager’s caliper also seemed to show a too tight fit .... but again, that could be an error in measurement technique in a difficult to reach space.
Quote: | Is there any chance a roller came out during assembly? |
Smart money at the shop is betting on Occam's Razor and that a pin did dislodge in both of my attempts, preventing a proper fit.
Tomorrow I will go back to the barn, double check everything, pay extra attention to preventing possible pin dislodgment and give it a go..... again. _________________ Don Alvarez
Retired HS Teacher
Central Florida
M38 Project |
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RonD2 Member
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 1926 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Still missing a piece of the puzzle? Determining the design spec dimension of what the distance between retaining clip grooves is supposed to be --- to see if yours is within spec?
If you did crush bearing roller pins (twice!) in your previous attempts, did you find those pins bent up or crushed in the bottom of the cup when you examined the debris after it broke? One pin mangled like no others? I sure would think that if a pin came out of place you'd also have seen or sensed that the cup wasn't properly seated and/or wouldn't spin like it's supposed to before pressing it?
Recommend that you consider removing the zerk fitting (if equipped) before pressing to relieve any possibility of hydraulic pressure from grease already in the cups.
Remove the cups before pressing to inspect and make sure everything is in order before pressing. Maybe off-shore QA isn't what it should be?
Quote: | This is why people drink. | And don't forget --- in this hobby a little lubrication can't hurt! Good luck! _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
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danrothe2001 Member
Joined: Oct 24, 2011 Posts: 48
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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1. Your measurements of the snap ring grooves are wrong. Inside to inside is irrelevant. Measure outside to outside and add the snap ring thickness to the u-joint width to find the dimension. This is the one that counts. Also note that some of the offshore u-joints use thicker snap rings which means that the u-joint will be narrower. Do not mix snap rings and u-joints.
2. Improper pressing will crush the ears and narrow the gap. The shop manual will show the proper way to support the u-joint to prevent this. Measure the dimension next to the driveshaft and the at the end. If it crushed they will not be parallel and you will get a smaller dimension outboard than inboard. The correct repair at this point is part replacement. The Bubba method is to find a piece of round stock slightly wider than the distance between the ears and drive it in to spread the ears until they are parallel again.
This info comes from 30 years of driveshaft repair and seeing most of Bubba’s screwups.
Dan |
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