Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:11 am Post subject: 1952 M38A1 Is it a Navy Jeep or not?
Hi guys, I’m, based in the UK and this is my first post, so please be gentle with me!
After many years of waiting I have eventually bought a September 1952 M38a1, (original tags attached). The vechicle is US made, and not a NEKAF normally seen here on these shores. According to the paperwork I got with the vechicle, it had 1 owner in the States for around 30 years, and in that time covered just 1500 miles! Sadly, I understand this previous owner is no longer with us.
The Jeep appears to be genuine, there is little rust, and I’m fairly sure that the engine has not been rebuild in the past. I do however, think it may been repainted at some stage by the previous owner, as it’s in Navy Grey, or could this be correct from back in the 1950s? On checking the chassis, under the grey it’s green, then under green it’s the original black.
So here my question: Is it possible to tell if it was delivered directly to the Navy in 1952 in green, then immediately painted by them? Or more likely, the previous owner painted it in the colour he liked? Possibly because he was a retired Navy man.
The serial number is 1734*, (last number removed) and the engine number is MD19270. I know it’s difficult, but would I be right in assuming the engine number is 1952?
Finally, is there anyone there who would have any idea of the original hood number?
Sorry tried to post a picture, but it’s beyond me!
From 52 to 53 the US Army was the primary procuring agency for tactical vehicles for all US armed forces. Thus the dash plates will ID the Army as the procurer. I am specifically referring to the lower left plate "Responsible Agency" plate. A 1952 M38A1 procured by the US Army for delivery to the US Navy would have left Willys with a black frame and a 2430 OD body.
The Army procurement contract in 1952 would have specified OD2430 applied without any primer coat in two coats using thinner in the first coat so it would act as a primer. Thus the only way to determine what paints were used and when on a half century old jeep is to very slowly and carefully strip away each layer while listing the layer's colors as you find them. One clue you have already told us is the frame was OD over black. This means the jeep was US Army at least thru it's first repaint.
The other thing to check is for original hood numbers by again stripping away slowly and carefully one layer of paint at a time. The Army used 8 digit 209XXXXX hood numbers in 1952, the Marine Corps used 6 digit 19XXXX hood numbers, the Navy used a 7 digit # laid out XX-XXXXX and the Air Force kept the Army registration hood #'s until about 1955 when they developed their own system using the last 2 digits of the year of the contract followed by a letter designating vehicle purpose then 4 digits early on and later 5 digits.
Finally you can carefully and slowly strip away paint one layer at a time on the bumpers, bumperettes and front of fenders looking for unit designations. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Hi Wes, thank you very much for your quick response, really appreciated.
From what you have said, it is likely that it was not a Navy Jeep originally, but made to look that way by its previous owner, probably early on in his ownership as it has the ‘patina’ look of some age. This is as I expected.
I understand your comments regarding potential markings being under the existing paint. The problem is I quiet like the Navy Grey colour, it’s different. I first have to decide will I be repainting it OD or not, but I’ll keep you informed.
You did not comment specifically on the engine number, but do you know if it is possible to confirm if it is from 1952 as I suspect? And finally' is there any form of register that can provide a hood number from the serial number number so I don't initially have to remove the paint?
Joined: Nov 28, 2019 Posts: 379 Location: Yorktown Virginia
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:49 am Post subject:
I’d paint it the way you want it. It’s yours.
My Jeep was all army... I just painted it grey and threw Coast Guard on it.
My service has a habit of taking leftover DOD materials. I left the army number instead of giving it a made up CG T number.
When I was overseas in Kuwait back in 10-12, we had two hmmv s that were woodland camo with CG markings over the army markings. We got these hmmvs out of the drmo . One of them I remember was named “Twinning 2” in yellow by one of my guys. Jersey shore was popular back then. Sure wish I could get the photos off my old laptop. _________________ April
i have a build thread on Youtube. just type in CoastieReid in the search.
MC 66792 5/52
Hood # 20942580
L134 # MC 91518
You did not comment specifically on the engine number, but do you know if it is possible to confirm if it is from 1952 as I suspect?
Engine serials are often difficult to nail down since Willys had no protocol to follow for which engines came out of production line stock first. The engines were serialized at engine buildup. The Army contracts would specify a certain number of jeeps with engines and a certain number of factory spare complete engines which were stamped MDXXXXX and RMDXXXXX near the production line and then withdrawn from the production line store on a closest to the door arrangement. Our web site has the largest M38A1 database which we obtained from Scott's web site in Texas when he shut down back about 2000. I have a 1952 USMC M38A1 MD17799 with an engine serial MD19933 which appears original.
Quote:
Finally, is there anyone there who would have any idea of the original hood number?
Unfortunately Scott's original database did not collect many hood numbers and we have no way to verify the ones he has were in any way confirmed to be original. I have always recommended against conjuring up fake hood numbers based on any unconfirmed database hood numbers. This skewers the true collectors efforts to ascertain original as opposed to fake. I have always recommended developing hood numbers for jeeps that have no history of their real hood number by simply using the first three digits of the correct period hood numbers and then use the jeeps military serial number. In your case this would be 2091734X. When we see these hood numbers on restored jeeps we will not interpret them as the original hood number. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Jul 18, 2008 Posts: 639 Location: Melrose, MA and Santa Fe, NM
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:33 pm Post subject:
For what it's worth....
As April pointed out, it's your jeep. Paint it however you want.
As Wes pointed out, a lot of tactical vehicles come from/came from the US Army.
While I was deployed to Iraq in 09-10 we had MRAPs, HMMVs, Caiden's, etc. issued to us in country that had been brought over by another unit or shipped directly from the States for issue to deployed units. As we prepped to redeploy back stateside we turned those in. Bumper numbers, unit markings and numbers, paint schemes were all changed with each unit - at least to some extent or another. Most stayed sand colored but special markings and names were changed out. For Route Clearance we might have a MRAP or mine sniffing vehicle that was last issued to a Navy or USMC unit, or an Army or USAF unit. They would get a quick repaint and new unit markings sprayed on from a stencil kit.
I really don't think our current practices are all that different from what was done in the 50s or 60s. From veterans I've talked to that served overseas something similar happened. Look at the Korean War where a lot of the jeeps with MBs left over from WWII.
So, from a historical representation perspective, think about what era and persona you want it to represent and go for it. Hood numbers, paint color, bumper numbers, etc. can all be repainted if you change your mind. Put the research and focus into having it be running 100% and 24V or other first before you get into the bling.
My '52 M38 is fairly original and stock - as best we can tell and I have made it. However, I drive it frequently so have used things like zip ties and other modern adaptations where I felt it made sense and wasn't immediately obvious. My M38 is still 24V but I wouldn't say that the waterproofing system (pressurizing and fording valve) work properly. Nor does the vacuum system work right. I added extra canvas bags and the map/cargo pouches to the back of the front seats.
But every Summer I'm driving it whenever I can on the roads of Martha's Vineyard - dirt and paved - and getting smiles, and scowls, and enjoying every minute of it! _________________ North Shore, MA
Santa Fe, NM
1942 GPW
1952 M38
1964 Apollo 5000 GT
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:12 pm Post subject:
That reminds me. I promised the illustrious Dr. I would dust off the sales catalog copies made for me that contain various M vehicles when transitioned out of the military.
Wes, you know the info I’m speaking of. The flow of brochure copies dried up. One of us needs to reconnect and see if he has more.
Many listings of M38A1’s had the motor serial, registration (hood) numbers and other details. Many were undriveable parts units, but some still had that info.
I started a spreadsheet, but as mentioned, the flow dried up.
Thank you for all your comments, All really interesting, and I’m amazed just how much knowledge there is out there. I clearly have lots to learn in the coming years!!
Your engine serial number is most likely the factory original engine. Your engine serial number is in range with the others I have in my database. As Wes pointed out, the engines were not installed in order, however, there is a pattern where the first 2 digits are the same--but could vary by a several hundred units. The first engines brought to the assembly line were the last engines out as other engines were put in front of them. Add also more engines coming in as the stock of engine were used and where in the lines of engines the next one was pulled. There were also new engines pulled for spares for the military. The engine serial number to vehicle serial number got wider and wider as production progress. Engines also got replace during its service life, but the odds are against you that an engine within the correct serial number range found its way back into your M38A1. Even more so in its civilian life.
You are in luck I have several M38Als with original military registration numbers close to your A1, I can get you the first 5 digits:
USA 20959XXX
However: follow Wes recommendation for coming up with a registration number.
This assumes your A1 passed all inspections and wasn't parked off to the "far side" of the parking lot after coming off the assembly line, which would make these M38A1s a much longer walk for the inspector to get to. The inspectors no doubt just kept going to the closest M38A1 and others would then fill in the vacate spots. I have several small batches of M38s and M38A1s which have registration numbers that are much later than others within their serial number range which supports this lose theory. After testing, and if it passed, the military would accept them. If you find your original registration number, please pass it on.
If you will send me a PM I will send you a clipping of the database with your M38A1 so you can see how yours falls in line with the others around it. I can't get all the rows and headings to line up when pasting it to this reply.
Brian, I bought most if not all the sales books that were for sale. Within them were the owners original notes on the M38s and A1s he was biding on along with a print out from DOD of all the buyers and their address of items that was sold from that surplus sale. It took a year to get all the info added to the database! _________________ Harold W.
MVPA #6833
1945 GPW
1950 CJV-35/U
1951 M38 1952 M38
1962 USMC Contract M38A1
1953 Strick M100 1967 Johnson M416
1968 CJ5 4-Speed 1969 CJ5 V6
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:21 am Post subject:
Hello Harold,
That is great news! I knew he had plastic tubs full of the things and made copies of some and sent them to me after I found them on eBay.
Did you say you added this to the online databases here?
I will look at the ones I have and let you know what/when they are. Need these all in one place.
Send me the sale brochure info - or Wes so we can add it to the data base.
I agree with everyone in that you should paint it how you want it. Take photos of what it was like for historical purposes and if you sell it down the road you can pass that info along to the next owner so they have options too. _________________ Ryan Miller
MVPA # 22010
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