Joined: Apr 18, 2005 Posts: 458 Location: Rhode Island
Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:26 pm Post subject:
60 years ago nobody anticipated we would have the efforts against pollutions that exist today. Motor oil was motor oil and I doubt they even had the tools needed to measure what they look at today.
Manufacturers had notice since they started moving to roller motors in the 90's.
We can be glad we work on lower stressed engines rather than the big high winding V8's from the 60's.
Zinc content was the norm in the 50's thru the 70's. The reduction a little every few years is what has snuck up on us old car operators. Although our engines don't normally suufer the stress levels a 60's big Go Motor like the 428's, 396's, 406's, 426's and so on from that period we still endure the dry startups every time we let the old girl set for a week or more. This reults in shortening the life of the cam followers and the cam and hat fuel pump lobe! _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Aug 11, 2012 Posts: 76 Location: Osoyoos.British Columbia, Canada
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:33 am Post subject:
i was talking with a guy in a performance parts store about my '52 and he said the same about low zinc in modern oil. he told me of a product he uses, which is called " Joe Gibbs Racing Oil ". it's available here at Mopac. i haven't done any research yet because i'm not at the rebuild stage yet. doing the body work first since that will probably take longest _________________ Frank 1952 M38 Cdn CAR 52-31812,1952 M38 Cdn F100005, 1967 Jeepster, 1999 XJ, 1999 TJ " rubiCLONE"
Joined: Aug 31, 2010 Posts: 1740 Location: SO IDAHO
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:26 pm Post subject:
frankthecrank58 wrote:
he told me of a product he uses, which is called " Joe Gibbs Racing Oil ".
My engine builder (a performance guy) provided this product with
my fresh motor as the break-in oil. It's spendy but for as few miles as some of us put on our trucks and the time between oil changes
it's not cost
prohibitive. He suggested that he would warranty my rebuild as long
as i used this (joe gibbs) or equal. _________________ keep 'em rollin'
RICKG MC 51986 DOD 01-52, '50 CJ3a
Joined: Mar 13, 2006 Posts: 1079 Location: Richburg, SC
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:34 am Post subject:
STP or Lucas - there are different schools of thought here, but they have been on the market for a long time for a reason - and they are still cheap insurance! _________________ Matt
1953 M38a1
1964 USMC M38a1
'51 USMC M100 trailer, '54 M100 trailer, '90 M101a1 trailer
Http://wilfreeman.wordpress.com (M38a1 build blog)
http://m38a1usmc.wordpress.com (USMC M38a1 rebuild blog)
Joined: Jun 27, 2011 Posts: 262 Location: "Thumb" of Michigan
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: oil
For better or worse I've been using Shell 15W-40 Rotella T Triple Protection oil which has approximately 1200 ppm of zinc and 1100 ppm phosphorus at the time of manufacture.
Tim _________________ Tim Juhl
1952 M38A1
1946 Aeronca L16A Army Liaison Aircraft
Just print the article referred to above and carry to your local oil distributor and buy the oil that has the proper contents. Since you are outside the US it would be unwise for us to name a brand for you.
[Editor's Note: After the conversation following our introduction of the Hemmings Motor News Motor Oil last month, we turned to our tech guru, Jim O'Clair, for an explanation of the problems classic car owners have when choosing a modern motor oil.]
There has been a lot of confusion in the last few years about the lowering of zinc and phosphorus levels in modern oils and how these lower levels relate to classic and performance engines using standard flat tappet lifters – that is, just about every car built before the Eighties. The concern involves the use of the new lower zinc/phosphorus-content ILSAC (multi-viscosity) oils, readily available on shelves at auto parts stores everywhere, and how compatible they are with these older engines.
When anyone mentions zinc, they are actually referring to zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, a compound invented by Castrol for use in mineral-based oils or zinc di-thiophosphate (ZDTP), which is normally used in synthetic oils. Both have been used as an anti-wear ingredient in engine oil for many years. The zinc and phosphorus ingredients appear to be most effective when they are used together. ZDDP/ZDTP is one of many additives that are put into conventional motor oil to improve its lubrication qualities. Other ingredients such as boron and molybdenum are also added as lubricant enhancers.
What was discovered through oil testing by several engine component manufacturers is that many older engines experience a short period of time during engine start-up where critical lubrication is insufficient between metal-to-metal lubrication points when using modern oils with reduced amounts of ZDDP/ZDTP. These same enhancers unfortunately have their downside: The phosphorus in this compound creates carbon buildup in engine bores and valvetrains, and both compounds can also lead to the early demise of catalytic converters. For this reason, the industry has been phasing out zinc and phosphorus levels since 1994, when the American Petroleum Institute’s SH designation became the industry standard, and levels have been further reduced in each subsequent API rating for engine oils. Manufacturers have tried adding more boron to offset the effects of the reduced zinc and phosphorus levels; however, the dry start protection does not measure up to those using more ZDDP/ZDTP. This has opened up a whole new market for zinc/phosphorus additives for oil and many camshaft and engine manufacturers now recommend that an additive be used in initial break-in and for regular use.
All engine oils are rated for viscosity by the SAE as well as additive content by the API; passenger car ratings are two-letter designations that start with “S.” Heavy-duty or off-road equipment ratings start with “C.” The current API oil rating for passenger cars (gasoline engines) is SM and for trucks (diesel engines) CJ-4. Within these designations, you can determine how much zinc and how many other chemicals are present in the ILSAC (multi-viscosity) oils. These levels do not apply to straight-weight oils. If levels in the ILSAC oils are too high for the API specification, they cannot be rated for the current specification unless the container specifies “for racing or off-road use only” or “for use in classic cars.” This has caused oil companies to reduce levels of many additives, including zinc and phosphorus, to the required maximum in order to meet the current specification. Listed here are the current specifications for maximum amounts of additives to achieve the API ratings. P is phosphorus, Zn is zinc, and B is boron. Each figure is total parts per million of additives. These can also be roughly expressed in percentages by multiplying by .0001 (1301 PPM = .13 percent, 994 PPM = .099 percent)
API P Zn B
SJ 1301 1280 151
CI-4 1150 1374 83
SL 994 1182 133
CJ-4 819 1014 26
SM 770 939 127
Most engine and engine component manufacturers recommend zinc and phosphorus content of more than 1,200 PPM for break-in; in fact, many will void warranties on camshafts or crate engines if this minimum is not found in the oil sample you supply when returning broken parts for warranty. For this reason, many manufacturers produce their own zinc additives or oils with supplementary zinc included; GM even offers its own break-in oil with additional ZDDP. With respect to readily available oil, you can see from the chart that, if you can find oil still on the shelf rated SJ or SL, you can use them, but you are right on the cusp of voiding a warranty. New SM oils are just not going to cut it unless they have a zinc additive to boost the rating and one of the zinc supplements should be used with these oils or oils containing additional ZDDP additives are recommended. Some enthusiasts have recommended using commercially rated CI-4 15W40 diesel oil to meet the zinc and phosphorus additive requirement; however, CI-4 is an old specification and hard to locate. You can see that the CJ-4 specification that now supersedes it is well below acceptable levels. Our best recommendation is that you contact your oil supplier for exact additive contents. Many straight-weight oils do not have to meet the ILSAC API specifications to be sold as SM or CJ-4, so this may be an alternative. Classic car oils with elevated levels of ZDDP/ZDTP are also being offered by many suppliers. Regardless, if you are purchasing off-the-shelf oil for your classic car, ILSAC multi-viscosity oils rated SM or CJ-4 should have stated zinc and phosphorus additive supplements for use in older engines or an additional separate additive should be purchased and used with the new oil. As the new API rating SN becomes available in the next year, even more caution should be taken as the levels will be reduced even further.
Joined: May 14, 2013 Posts: 201 Location: Between Crosslake and Emily, Minnesota
Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:44 am Post subject:
I have done a little research on this topic and found three manufactures that sell a ZDDP product. Depending on product, the dosage is 2 to 4 oz per oil change. The three products are Eastwood ZDDP Additive, ZDDPlus, and ZDDP Maxx. I decided to go with ZDDPlus and will be using it with modern 10W-30 motor oil.
Others have suggested the use of Valvoline VR1 racing oil. According to Valvoline it has a 1300ppm zinc and 1200ppm phosphorus content. Some have cautioned against the use of racing oils in classic cars because racing oils are made for short term use between changes and therefore may not have contain sufficient levels of other additives. _________________ Steve Stark - 1955 M38A1 MD #85388
Member - MVPA #35153
Member - Red Bull Historic Military Vehicle Association
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