Joined: Apr 08, 2009 Posts: 249 Location: Mariposa, Ca.
Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:16 pm Post subject: Installing Felpro Head Gasket
Replacing my blown head gasket with a Felpro this time and when I opened the package I found that one side of the gasket is bare metal and the other has the blue surface. No directions of course and nothing on the gasket to indicate which side goes to the block. No compression ring on the bare side either, just on the blue side. Anyone have experience with these? The bare metal side is steel rather than copper. I really want this to work this time.
BTW, I checked the head and block for flatness and both seem good. Using a .003 feeler gauge and straight edge, I could not find anywhere it did not drag on either surface.
Consensus on this site and my research, do not use the copper sealant unless it is a copper gasket and no sealant unless it has directions that say to use it. Wes made that point and others have backed that up.
Mike _________________ Mike Wenrich
1961 USMC M38A1, 1965 M416B1 Trailer, 1956 Willys Wagon (Modified)
What is the part number of your new Felpro gasket?
This is Felpro PN 7543 SBX
FelPro's web site is a pain to navigate. You must go to the Federal Mogul site then work your way into Felpro.
Their installation guides and specs are published as PDF's on their web page:
http://www.fme-cat.com/#
If you read through all of it there are a lot of lessons to be learned there.
Most important is NO SEALANTs on the fabric or soft side. They allow but do not specify a sealer can be used on the all metal side. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: May 14, 2009 Posts: 972 Location: South Dakota
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:38 am Post subject:
I've had nothing but pain and suffering with that gasket. It loves to leak between cylinders two and three where there is little block material. I changed to a all or both fiber sided gasket with no sealant applied. I then retorqued after I first ran the engine up to operating temp. while still hot. Have had no more problems----------yet. Both my block and head were resurfaced. I also must mention that I had a hairline crack between the cylinders in the block in that weak location. That didn't help things. I V'd the crack and JB welded it there. Then dressed it carefully with a sanding block. The f head's weakness in my opinion is not enough material there. Good luck! John
As noted the crack and difference in surface texture at that point is most likely the cause of your grief. The expansion and contraction rates will vary from one side of the crack to the other in operation. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Apr 08, 2009 Posts: 249 Location: Mariposa, Ca.
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:07 am Post subject:
Wes...that is the exact gasket I have. I looked at the link/site you sent and still do not see which is the block side to the gasket.
I also have not found your reference to a sealant being allowed on the bare side but I did not look at all their links...just the head gasket application.
I am trying to identify the teflon thread sealer and have a supply shop working on that. Rumor has it that it is good stuff and that might eliminate the possibility of the leak coming past the threads but I still had the problem between the 2&3 cylinder like John. The head bolts I have are obviously old and even a couple look mismatched in design, meaning at some point they were replaced on a previous rebuild. I'm wondering if I should replace those as well, assuming new ones are available in the three different lengths. _________________ Mike Wenrich
1961 USMC M38A1, 1965 M416B1 Trailer, 1956 Willys Wagon (Modified)
Joined: Feb 20, 2007 Posts: 606 Location: Illinois
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:46 am Post subject:
Madmike - I answered your last post about head gasket sealing. The topic of how to properly install head gaskets is obviously very complex and few gereralizations can be made - because you need to understand which vehicle and gasket - old vs. modern - is being discussed. It really doesn't help much when we are taking about 50+ year old motors and trying to find answers among instructions that are meant for today's engines and gasket technology! Likewise it doesn't help much to research installation with 50 year old instructions in the original repair manuals with modern gaskets. You mix up instructions and products and eras and something is bound not to be right. The gasket manufacturers don't help much - maybe out of liability concerns, who knows. Certain things are true - head and block must be flat and clean, gasket the proper shape, head torqued properly. When I was assembling my M38 with a new (old) rebuilt engine I couldn't find any specific instructions either. The engine had been rebuilt 10-12 years earlier, never installed and when the original owner died, I bought it from a realative. It did not have a head. So putting together my jeep the last thing I did (after everything was hooked up, engine timed, etc.) was to install the head and fill the cooling system. Next day I came back to attempt a start and found the engine cylinders had coolant in them. How did I know? - coolant level had dropped in the radiator. WTH! Tore everything down and cleaned out the engine, bought a new gasket - the same paper/metal gasket you have and carefully used copper spray sealant to coat the metal side. Then after assembly, METAL SIDE GOES TO THE BLOCK, filled with coolant and immediately started the engine and brought it up to operating temp. Lots of smoke. But it was soooo sweet to hear that engine! Shut it down and after cooling, rechecked torque. No leaks this time, no problems since. Felpro instructions mention that the metal side of some gaskets (I can't say for certain if my gasket had such a coating - they don't give you that info ANYWHERE, I'll swear it had no coating) has a coating to prevent "cold leakage" but if it did, it wasn't enough on my engine. (Wes's pic above show's a blue side to the metal gasket face - I don't remember that being on my gasket??) So I used the copper sealant. I can't say I'm an expert, or know what will work for you, but I understand your confusion. But I know what worked for me. Here are a few more tech references.
Joined: May 14, 2009 Posts: 972 Location: South Dakota
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:51 pm Post subject:
My machine shop told me the metal side goes to the block because the block won't move as much as the head. They said copper coat the metal side only. I did, and it leaked, and I didn't have 10 miles on it yet and no retorque. I started my F head today and guess what, it had a miss. Sure enough, after sitting I can see green antifreeze right where the gasket blew last time. The gasket hasn't blown however. I'm thinking it's going to take another block and much more money to fix it now. The torque is fine and I put some barsleak in the antifreeze as a last ditch effort. So, my 2 cents are, if you see any cracks at all, get another block. Nothing like having a Jeep on Crack! . John
Joined: Apr 08, 2009 Posts: 249 Location: Mariposa, Ca.
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject:
Skyjeep, thanks for the in depth answer. I admit I was very surprised to see the metal sided Felpro gasket, even though you said before that was what you installed. My previous experience, albeit many years ago, on Mopar and GM products was that the gasket was coated both sides. At least that is what my memory is telling me now. I sure would feel better if that was case this time. I read the links as well and my gasket did not come with directions. Just the notice that it is not returnable if opened and the blue side was up. You got directions at least so that should tell me that the metal side goes down.
I am a little more than leery about coating the gasket after all the discussion but with a slick surface on one side and no compression ring to seal, dang it seems iffy. The Victor gasket had a metal rim on both sides. But if research was done and these worked, then maybe I am worrying for nothing. The "start it right away after adding coolant and then the retorque" might be the best remedy here.
BTW, I installed the fiber both sides gasket while the engine was out of the vehicle and it was not started for months after that when I finished the remaining paint and body work. It then got the coolant (water first) and ran for about 30 minutes before I torqued again. So there is another factor to consider. How long it sat with the copper sealant in contact while Mikey complained about how cold it was outside and sat by the fireplace.
I appear to still have very flat surfaces so that should not be a problem. I'm curious what else Wes might have to say now that he knows which gasket I have and it would be nice to know which one he prefers.
Mike _________________ Mike Wenrich
1961 USMC M38A1, 1965 M416B1 Trailer, 1956 Willys Wagon (Modified)
It's all been said already. Surface prep is 70 % of sealing effort. It is very obvious that until about 1970 all the Willys / Kaiser manuals say no sticky stuff. Then the 1971 issue of SM-1046, which covers the F134, says spray both sides of head gasket with 994757 spray sealant and install the the gasket crimped metal edges down. This seems to describe the gasket that is soft on both sides with the metal core that is crimped over and exposed on the down side of the gasket. Don't confuse sealants with lubricants when referring to coating either side of head gaskets. Most late models with aluminum vs steel joints at the head require spray lubricant or gasket manufacturer applied lube layer to allow head movement.
Again the procedure for a gasket installation should follow the appropriate instructions to the gasket which may have changed considerably since 1952 from the original OEM supplied gasket.
I agree that Victor & FelPro do a very poor job of properly describing their gaskets and making appropriate technical references for their installation.
More importantly when we ask for information on how to install a specific gasket on a specific engine we must always accurately ID the Make and PN of the gasket and the Make & Model of the engine. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Feb 20, 2007 Posts: 606 Location: Illinois
Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:08 am Post subject:
The advantage to the copper sealant is that it can be applied in a very even, smooth and thin layer. Just enough to seal a close-tolerance metal- to-metal interface. It won't fill larger gaps or imperfections. All-fiber gaskets generally don't use sealants because the gasket itself can crush and fill the gap between components. _________________ 1951 M38
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The torque is fine and I put some barsleak in the antifreeze as a last ditch effort. So, my 2 cents are, if you see any cracks at all, get another block. Nothing like having a Jeep on Crack! 
. John
