Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:32 pm Post subject: Front leaf spring pivot bolt and bushing differences.
EDIT: Wes describes below the substantial difference between military stock and civilian stock pivot bolts and bushings. Over the years, I'm sure many jeeps have been modified from the stock military to larger greasable civilian bolts with solid brass bushings in the main spring eye.
My installed springs both have solid brass bushings that fit a much larger bolt. The pivot bolts in my M38 are the greasable kind and they seem almost twice the diameter of the ID of the new replacement rubberized bushing supplied with my used/serviceable springs.
So what gives? Someone back when drill up the bracket and put in larger bolts? Most websites show 359039 brass bushings for a bolt that has a grease fitting. I take it that is not stock military, but a civilian bushing for a CJ bolt? _________________ ------------
Matt
1951 M38
Last edited by DocThrock on Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:43 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: May 14, 2009 Posts: 971 Location: South Dakota
Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:40 pm Post subject:
CJ2A's had the larger rear bolt that is a greaseable type. The spring eye has the larger solid brass bushing. The M38 has just a bolt with the rubber bush you describe. No matter what kind you have, if the bolt wears through the bushing and then wears deep into the actual spring eye, they both break the eye off the spring due to the wear. John
CJ2A's had the larger rear bolt that is a greaseable type. The spring eye has the larger solid brass bushing. The M38 has just a bolt with the rubber bush you describe. No matter what kind you have, if the bolt wears through the bushing and then wears deep into the actual spring eye, they both break the eye off the spring due to the wear. John
I appreciate the reply, but I gotta say I'm still skeptical. Websites are showing the same brass bushing for the early CJs as well as M38s. What you say makes sense and is totally believable, and Wes's diagrams show a non grease bolt. But my M38 has the larger bolt and I really can't go backwards since the brackets on the frame have the larger holes. But still, what gives? And is the 359039 going to be the correct bushing? _________________ ------------
Matt
1951 M38
Been down this road many times. Just break open the parts book and check numbers the M38 is different from the CJ's period. All the vendors that tell you different or state different in their web sites are talking with Brown Eyes!
Thanks Wes. That's what I was expecting to see. Appreciate the detailed difference.
It wouldn't be that tough to drill up the frame bracket and put in the larger bolts. Wonder if that's what happened to my rig... a long time ago, in a field far away.
Never heard the phrase "talking with brown eyes". I like it! It's a shame most websites don't differentiate, just lump them all together (CJs and Military). When there are discreet differences. _________________ ------------
Matt
1951 M38
It emphasizes the importance of having the information at your fingertips. Always order parts using the numbers in your jeep's ORD 9 SNLG-XXX. When a supplier says the CJ item is the same or will work then ask for his part's part number and tell him you will get back to him. Then you go to your CJ parts list and decide for yourself based on your own detailed investigation. Bolts are often listed without size info but their nuts always seem to have the size info with them.
The best civvy part lists to keep on hand are the 1949 Master Willys parts list with revisions through 1954, the late fifties and early 60's fast moving parts catalogs which are more model specific, the CJ5 and CJ3B parts manuals from the 60's.
Turner 4WD and Portrayal Press carry most of them. You can shop ebay and often find them very cheap as CD's.
Joined: Nov 01, 2011 Posts: 199 Location: Escondido, CA
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:06 pm Post subject:
Wes,
Do you know why Willys used a different design on the M38 than that of the CJs? I have a hard time imagining it was to reduce the number of grease points when there are a bajillion to begin with, but I can't think of another advantage, especially to the military, of going with the rubber bushing. _________________ Jim McKim
1952 M38 son-father project
Slowly turning rusty parts into OD parts
I'll add to Wes's book recommendations are the Chilton and other car repair books from the 1970's and earlier... basically anything pre internet.
Most of these books are now dirt cheap but have extensive repair and trouble shooting guidelines that apply to just about any vehicle regardless of make.
Joined: Aug 31, 2010 Posts: 1740 Location: SO IDAHO
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:24 pm Post subject:
jimm wrote:
Wes,
Do you know why Willys used a different design on the M38 than that of the CJs? I have a hard time imagining it was to reduce the number of grease points when there are a bajillion to begin with, but I can't think of another advantage, especially to the military, of going with the rubber bushing.
Perhaps something to do with the planned short service life of the vehicle?? _________________ keep 'em rollin'
RICKG MC 51986 DOD 01-52, '50 CJ3a
My guess is the Army demanded the rubber bushing. Willys would not deliberately increase the cost of jeep production unless the Army was paying for the increase. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Also, don't forget the engineering data (probably lost to history) that came out of the CJ V-35 jeep production and other M38 XM38 jeeps that have also been forgotten.
There are at least 2 or 3 other XM38 jeeps that Willys produced for the Army for evaluation based on photographs I have seen reproduced.
The Willys vehicles were state of the art for their time in off road vehicles.
I have a copy of the M38 Pilot vehicle service manual. On page 111 Fig 166 shows the metal bushing and greasable bolt pivots for the springs. So that indicates to me that the CJV and the pilot M38's retained the greaseable bolt/metal bushing pivots.
The Nov 51 ORD 9 SNL G-740 shows the rubber bushing and 7/16" bolt as does the Sep. 1955 ORD 9.
The early M38 TM 9-804 service manual dated Sep 1950 shows the lubricated pivot bolt in the Fig's 49 & 50 but makes no mention of lubing it there or in the lubs charts.
Just to keep us on an even keel most of the M38 manuals used many illustrations from the pilot jeeps and the factory CJ3A. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Also, don't forget the engineering data (probably lost to history) that came out of the CJ V-35 jeep production and other M38 XM38 jeeps that have also been forgotten.
There are at least 2 or 3 other XM38 jeeps that Willys produced for the Army for evaluation based on photographs I have seen reproduced.
The Willys vehicles were state of the art for their time in off road vehicles.
Wondering if I might have an XM38? Maybe that's why I have a SPECX motor?
My local spring shop still had a main spring, complete with appropriate bushing installed, in stock. My springs seem to have neither the stock M38 bolt and rubberized bushing, nor the CJ greasable bolt and brass bushing. The brass bushings I've received so far are WAY small on the OD to press into my springs. My local spring shop has bushings with correct OD and ID for the bolts that I have, also in stock.
I'm very tempted to make a preemptive strike on my rear leaf springs. _________________ ------------
Matt
1951 M38
I wouldn't dream too hard. These jeeps have been basterdized tremendously over their half century plus lives. The data available only supports one grease bolt version on CJV35's and the 6 M38 pilots and the rubber bushing on all production M38's. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
