Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:14 am Post subject: Where does all the grease come from???
I got this in a PM and think it should be here for all our members to contribute too and profit from the answers.
Quote:
Wes,
I've been looking at 8012 and the blowups of the front axle, spindle and brake assembles.
I see the drive flange gasket, front hub oil seal, and am assuming there is some sort of gasket between the spindle flange and the knuckle. I can't figure out looking at these illustrations where all of the grease in the brakes and drum is coming from. It's like the entire volume of the knuckle has puked grease into the wheel hub and backing plate area.
Can you help me figure this out?
I can't imagine getting that volume of grease in there without putting a zert in there and pumping it in.
I did read somewhere that over filling the knuckle would cause it to blow it out. Is that where it goes along with overboard, but how does it get in there. I can't see it.
The knuckles were never meant to have grease pumped into them. Their design dictated periodic dis-assembly, cleaning and hand packing both pivot bearings and the knuckle cavity. Usually every 6,000 miles.
In most cases grease inside the drums comes from one of two places. The wheel bearings or the knuckle. In rare instances gear oil from the diff can get in there. Try to compare the texture and smell of the grease inside your drums to the three I have mentioned. Maybe that will help you pin point the source. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:12 am Post subject:
Hello Wes,
Thanks for the reply.
I posted three photos on my project page.
One thing I have neglected to mention is this jeep has older aftermarket locking hubs installed. They both turn fairly freely.
The grease has the texture and smell of wheel bearing grease. I have pulled and wiped more than a cupful (big cup) of the stuff from that area. It is filthy and grayish black.
One of your illustrations shows the axle sticking through the backing plate and there appears to be grease showing. I am assuming that is wheel bearing grease.
Can I use mineral spirits to clean everything? Ludel's book has a pretty paranoid perspective of keeping any petroleum products away from the seals and brake area, but I'm assuming that's on assembly and installation of the cups and hoses, etc. He also mentions the brake drum. Can I clean it with mineral spirits, then hot soap and water?
Joined: Feb 20, 2007 Posts: 606 Location: Illinois
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:22 am Post subject:
One of the first projects I did on my first two "project" jeeps - a CJ2A and a M38 - was to completely disassemble the front axle and hubs to clean everything out. Removed drive shafts, cleaned out the differentials, checked for wear, went through the steering system, de-rusted and repainted parts that needed it. Then reassembled everything to spec, threw away the steering stabilizers because now the front ends were right and tight, new seals, new brakes, hoses, re-greased, etc. Messy and time consuming job but because the PO's had not done it for decades, it was time to get it done again. Found lots of old compacted grease, gray slime, mud and rust. Used low vapor mineral spirits for cleaning in a parts washer and for the axle. A bottle brush mounted on a section of broom handle worked great for cleaning out the axle tubes. There's been lots of posts on the site discussing what greases to use for the front end. I used high temp wheel bearing grease to hand pack wheel bearings and "0" weight John Deere corn head grease for the knuckles. _________________ 1951 M38
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:55 am Post subject:
Sky,
I'd like to get some solvent on that mess as it sits so I'm not moving a pile of grease and junk to the workbench. I had a cow pile of greasy crap on the ground under the wheel yesterday evening. Took a shovel and scooped it all into a grocery bag and tossed it in the trash.
I have pulled all of the brake stuff off and put it in a baggie, then reinstalled the drum and wheel temporarily so I could put it back on the ground. I plan on doing the left side the same way.
Was thinking of putting a paint tray under the assembly and get a coffee can with mineral spirits in it, and try and brush/wipe that stuff off.
I am guessing that won't do any damage to anything for now. I understand the mineral spirits damaging the wheel cylinder seals and boots, and keeping grease and oil off the shoes. The takeoff shoes have so much cooked grease and stuff on them they look like bakelite.
Joined: Dec 03, 2013 Posts: 197 Location: Saint Augustine , Florida
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:21 am Post subject: grease
What I use under the jeep when dismantling is a water heater pan, the one under the water heater to protect it when it burst they make them in plastic and metal lowes, home-depo, ace, pluming supply I also use the newer style axles , the ones w/ the u-joint Buzz
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:26 am Post subject:
Hi Buzz,
In the search pages Wes talks about OEM specs for the knuckle lube,
then a mid-1950's change, and then the fact you can't even
buy most of that stuff anymore.
What makes sense is he then talked about viscosities of
knuckle lube depending on the condition of your parts.
Straight 140 wt gear lube won't stay in there as it will leak by
the seals, and the more wear you have on your components
the viscosity needs to be higher.
Might be a good spot to revisit that subject. Certainly no thread
hijack
Buzz K: Old wives tale on gear oil. The axle knuckles do not sling enough of anything to penetrate the almost completely enclosed steering pivot bearings. That is why on both early and late factory data for closed knuckles jeeps they still require the 6000 mile clean and hand repack of those two bearings. Half the death wobble cases come from folks ignoring this fact resulting in very worn pivot bearings. There are hundreds of posts on knuckle lubrication on all the jeep boards. The intelligent ones seldom overlook this fact.
Buzz without the K: When folks are sure they have a good tight sealing knuckle the weights often used are in the 600 range such as antique Ford axle diff gear oil.
Petroleum based cleaners will do no harm to the grease seals used on the knuckles and axle housings. There are only two sets of seals that are damaged by the petroleum based solvents. The wheel cylinder piston rubbers and the wheel cylinder rubber boots, which, during any brake rebuild are replaced anyway. I have used petroleum based solvents like PD680 and it's descendants since the 60's on drums and back plates with no ill effects. These type solvents are quick evaporating. They are also much cheaper than spray brake cleaners. I avoid direct soking of shoes and shoe bearing surface of the drums. Then during assembly I spray most all parts that produce braking energy with spray brake cleaner and blow them dry. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:26 pm Post subject:
Thanks Wes, that's what I needed to hear.
Managed to get the right rear brakes all removed. Pretty dry and wire brushed. Put the drum and screws back on, along with the tire, and she is sitting on all fours again while I grab some lunch.
I am not looking forward to the left front because of the mess I found on the right front. All the parts are off, but I need to now go clean everything up.
I'll have to go back and look at Moses' book regarding pulling the lockers.
Once I get her to dry ground I'll work on pulling everything back to the knuckles and see what there is to see.
I'm still amazed at how much grease I found in the drum and brake area up front.
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 510 Location: North Carolina
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:43 pm Post subject:
wesk wrote:
That is why on both early and late factory data for closed knuckles jeeps they still require the 6000 mile clean and hand repack of those two bearings. Half the death wobble cases come from folks ignoring this fact resulting in very worn pivot bearings. There are hundreds of posts on knuckle lubrication on all the jeep boards. The intelligent ones seldom overlook this fact.
TRUEST STATEMENT MADE ON THE INTERNET THIS YEAR !!
WE FIX THE DEATH WOBBLE BY 98% IN MY SHOP BY DOING THIS FOR CUSTOMERS. THEY COME IN WANTING THE WHOLE STEERING ASSEMBLY REPLACED OR LOOKED AT AND IN A MATTER OF 3.5 HOURS THERE PROBLEMS ARE CURED.
Joined: Feb 20, 2007 Posts: 606 Location: Illinois
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:18 am Post subject:
4X4M38 - yep, that's what I did as well, a tray or pan under the hub and scrape, brush and wipe away as much of the crud as possible before taking things apart. I used a cheap garden sprayer to spray mineral spirits in and on the axle tube to clean it out (best to do this with good ventilation and no open flames nearby). Open up the differential to let the mineral spirits drain out - be careful not to damage or dislodge the drive shaft seal at the diff. end of the axle tube. This, being one of the messiest maintenance jobs, means PO's over-greased your jeep rather than doing a proper lube job. Your jeep is going to appreciate your efforts! _________________ 1951 M38
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