Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:49 pm Post subject: A noob with his first jeep needs steering help!
Hello everyone, I'm a noob to the forum and to owning a jeep. Trying to finish a 1952 M38A1 restoration. This is not a frame off restoration. The fellow I bought it from up in Georgia had come a long way and spent a lot on the mechanicals(engine primarily). I'm trying to get it to a good driving point.
We just replaced the clutch bellcrank and had to pull the gas tank which is being cleaned and coated. The next problem is the steering. It's got a half turn(180 degrees) of free play in the wheel. The fellow that owned it, said that everyone he spoke with told him that it was normal. I had occasion to drive an mb/gpw in Korea 51/52 as a 19 year old Marine, and I don't remember the steering being that sloppy. So my question is; where do I start? steering box out, tie rod ends in? sure could use some help here and thank you all for having me.
Bob "Jar" Leon
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:06 pm Post subject:
Hi Bob,
Welcome to the forum.
180 degrees is not normal.
Go to the downloads and download the manuals, including the operations manual. In there it has troubleshooting as well as repairs.
I had the same problem with my M38. However, looking at the front I could see the right tie rod was bent, so I started there. The tie rod bearings were shot, there were no bearings left in the bell crank assembly, and the drag link was a mess of worn out parts. I replaced the tie rods and ends, rebuilt the bell crank, rebuilt the drag link, and all I have left to do is rebuild the Ross steering box. All of those repairs were easy to do, except removing the tie rod ends. If you are reusing them you'll need a fork to separate the pins from the ends. I replaced mine completely so I didn't care about any damage in removal.
I can tell you that at least 80 to 85 percent of the steering problems I had are now gone, but there is still play in the steering box and Pittman arm and that won't do for a driver.
You may not have to do all I did, but using the trouble shooting and repair guides you should be able to eliminate anything that is good. However, if you grab it and it wiggles, it's toast. I just took the safe route and replaced or rebuilt it all. Money wise, unless you are talking about the steering box the rest is relatively inexpensive to repair/replace.
Joined: Nov 24, 2010 Posts: 1390 Location: Orem, UT
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:59 pm Post subject:
That isn't normal, that's a recipe for a crash. Anyone that could say that is normal is a moron.
You need to have someone crank the wheel back and forth while you get some eyeballs down in there and see what is going on. _________________ Brett
'51 M38
PHOTO DIARY OF MY BUILD
Brian,
Many thanks for the 2 cents. I will download the manuals. we already kind of eyeballed the linkage and did not see anything that looked bent but when you turn the wheel , it appeared that some of the linkage was actually twisting.
Thanks again,
Bob
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:25 pm Post subject:
Hi Bob,
As Bretto's said, squat down in front of the grille while somebody
turns the wheel from lock to lock. Watch the tie rod ends, as well
as the rod bearing that ties to the bell crank. If all of those
appear ok, check out the bell crank by grabbing the ends and
trying to flex it in the mount. If all appears well there,
then lay under the front and grab the drag link and flex it looking
for looseness where it connects to the bell crank, as well as
the Pittman arm. Again, from underneath, have someone turn
the wheel and watch all of those parts. Lastly, grab the Pittman
arm and try to move it up and down, and back and forth.
There should not be any slop in any of those parts.
All of this is a quick and dirty way of finding obvious problems,
but is in no means a replacement for following the procedures
in the manuals.
Just a thought... does the jeep actually have the steering mechanism that is original to an M38A1?
I have seen some amazingly smart and many more stupid conversions done to jeeps over the years. I'll never forget the "all original" CJ2A I went to look at that was 4 feet in the air with monster truck tires. The guy selling it was sure it came from the factory just like that.
Maybe you have a steering set up from an International Scout or some other vehicle? In the 1960's and '70's it was really difficult to find original parts to some vehicles. Many aftermarket parts were junk right out of the box then too.
Two most important systems on your jeep from a safety standpoint are the steering and the brakes. As a nooby experimenting with repairs and restoration of things for looks or performance are fine but you need to get a good handle on the basics of brakes and steering as they apply to a half century old vehicle. Then troubleshoot and repair once the correct way. My advice for someone who has said he does not understand how to evaluate his steering system is to take the jeep to an old fashion front end shop. Old guy, greasy coveralls and he only works suspension. In less then 15 minutes on his rack he'll hand you a list of defects that need to be addressed and an estimate. Then you can decide which way to go. Try to watch the front end mechanic do his inspection. This is what we do:
1-Test drive it.
2-inspect all components for looseness (Slop)
3-Check all angles.
Try to understand that 1/8" of play at one tie rod end shouldn't create a serious issue at the steering wheel. But 10 parts with an 1/8" of play will give you 180 degrees of slop in the wheel.
Here's a simple regimen I use:
Have a helper hold the steering wheel tight to keep it from rotating.
Jack the front wheels off the floor.
Grasp each wheel at top and bottom and try to rock it. If there is wheel bearing play or king pin bearing play it will show up here.
Now grasp each wheel at the front and back and try to rock it left/right. The wheel shouldn't move more than 2 or 3 degrees. 5 at the most. To narrow down the location of any slop you will need a second assistant to rock the wheel left right while you check each moving part for slop. All tie rods, steering bellcrank, drag link and steering gear box.
The smart thing to do next is fix all the loose parts. If you are tight on change then start by fixing the parts with the most slop until the steering play is reduce to no more than 3" of steering wheel rim movement.
The important point here is do not wander into the realm of the unknown the first time without seeking experienced help/guidance. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:49 pm Post subject:
That's good advice as usual from you Wes.
At the point when I get road worthy my first stop will be to a capable shop to have someone that does it for a living check out both the steering and brakes.
Thanks to you all for the good advice.
Sorry I didn't get back sooner. Down with the bronchitis. My good friend and neighbor Paul, has been restoring Corvairs for years and has gotten excited about working on the jeep. His advice is much the same as Wes'. That's the plan. soon as we get the tank back in the jeep and can move it onto concrete. In the meantime, I'll be looking for a front end mechanic who's been around awhile. Maybe not as long as I've been. There's a lot to be found on the internet. watched a couple of Carl Walcks video on jeep steering.
Thank you all again.
Bob
Latest on the steering. Replaced tie rods, installed bellcrank repair kit, drag link repair kit and it all goes in tomorrow morning. we locked up the pitman so that it wouldn't move and there was no play in the steering wheel. King pins seem fine. I have a new sector shaft and steering box kit and the pitman arm looks good. We'll see after tomorrow
Still got a very slight wobble in bell crank. There is only 1 washer. looking at the exploded view, that's all it shows. when you put it back together, it leaves a a gap at the top. Certainly looks like another washer should fit in at the top.
The cross bolt does not fit in the groove in the bell crank pin. Is it supposed too?
Would like to hear from anyone who has ever put one of these together.
It's got me scratching my head.
Are you sure you have the correct size bellcrank kit (IE 7/8" or 1" shaft)? Secondly is it a quality US made kit or an offshore kit? Third, are you using the tm's 9-8012 & 9-1804B along with the IPL Ord 9 SNL G-740?
You will also find the civvy factory service manual handy and should buy a complete SM-1002 manual. Lots of better drawings.
I bought bellcrank repair kit, tie rod ends and the drag link repair kit from QTM in Chickamauga, GA. Everything fit well and according to the ads are made in USA. The bell crank pin is identical to the one I removed and the 3rd one in Brian's No. 22 image. I'm think everything is right from the tie rods to the Pitman arm. Guess we will have to do the steering box.I also bought TM9-8015-1, -2, TM 9 804A, TM9 8014 and ORD 9 SNL 758 from Canham and Sons
in Arizona.
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