Fender Mounting (Really Bizzare!)

Bob_C · Post by **Bob_C** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:14 pm

Ok. Got a rather bizzare issue. Any help from anyone will be appreciated!

Tried to mount my fenders today. First off, before I continue -- my M38A1 is a LATE production run -- but doesn't totally conform to the late production qualities. Fenders especially. They're late in the respect that they have the reinforcing plate, but early in respect that they have the brace running down the side -- extending 6 inches to the frame to be bolted on. Mustve gotten into an accident, and the Army was forced to make a repair.

These fenders had the same paint scheme as the rest of the jeep did when I got it -- so I know they mounted to it. However, when I got it, they werent. Nor was the grill or anything.

So. Lets start from the top. All of the holes for the fender on the tub line up. However, the holes for the brace are probably 1.25 inches off from the ones on the frame....as well as the holes on the grill (grill holes to corrosponding ones on the fender).
Let me show you what I'm talking about...

Fender / Grill.

Fender / Tub.

Fender Brace / Frame. Holes are underneath the far end of the brace.

Originally...I thought the grill was positioned incorrectly. I guess it could still be, but it still wouldn't answer why the brace didn't line up.

Also, the shock absorber doesnt quite fit in it's "slot" correctly.

Then the thought of the tub being off came to mind....but that can't be either. Sure, I welded new front hat channels. BUT the one on the rear floorboard that spans from left to right was NEVER touched...and those holes line up. Every mounting point hole lines up except for the rear panel, and thats because of accident damage I believe...and even then...the holes from the frame to the back panel are about 1/2inch off....not 1.25.

I asked my dad about this and he said from what he can recall on his old M38A1s in the CAP, that all of the spacing looked right. See for yourself.

What on gods green creation is going on here? I can't seem to figure it out! ($5 says its something really stupid though). Open to all suggestions and comments -- as it is quite possible I could have done something wrong.

Post by **Ryan_Miller** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:47 pm

Bob,

Do you have all the mounting bolts for the tub to the frame and the fenders to the tub and frame loose?

With all the bolts tightened, it can be difficult to make minor adjustments.

I like to have the bolts in place, with the nuts barely on the bolt so that everything is loose.

This allows you to shift things around to "play" with the alignment of the panels.

Once you have things close, you can start to tighten things up.

Panel alignment can be frustrating and there have been times when I had to walk away for a week or so to calm down.

Bob_C · Post by **Bob_C** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:03 pm

Yes, I did snug them down. I did think about making them loose....but there is noooo way Ill move that tub back 1.25 inches. The holes are approximately half inch, the bolts that go through are 3/8 (mostly...some 5/16 stuff with different sized holes). But even then 1/2 - 3/8 = 1/8 of play...which is 1.125 short still....

This hasn't pissed me off just yet....because I have a feeling its something stupid. But I guess this could get old real fast if I dont start figuring things out.

Called the previous owner to ask him to take a trip back down memory lane...but he's a pilot and hardly is home...ever.

Heres some dimensions I have:

9 and 3/8 from the back of the front bumper to the front of the grill.

32 and 3/16 from grill to firewall (flat section, not recessed)

ChuckW · Post by **ChuckW** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:53 am

Bob, I'd loosen the body mounting bolts like Ryan says, you may be surprised how much things will shift around. I put a set of NOS fenders on an M38A1 years ago and had a heck of a time getting everything to line up correctly. Takes a lot of shifting and prying to make things line up. I'm no expert on the M38A1, but something just does not look right about the grill hinge brackets to me...the M38 uses a short bracket on the frame, same as the tailgate bracket, yours look like they are too long....M38A1 experts, check these hinge brackets, please.

Jacques · Post by **Jacques** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:26 pm

I am no expert on A1 but like Chuck I thought something was kind of not quit right with the brackets.
I checked on my M38 and mine are facing the other way. The hinge toward the bumper not the engine.
That would put the grill more foward.
You could qive that a try. You will probably gain about 1 1/2 inch to 2 in

GregS · Post by **GregS** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:51 pm

According to the M38a1 manual, he has them on correctly.

Jacques · Post by **Jacques** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:11 pm

Oouupss you are right. Looked on my M38, not exactly an A1. That's why I thought something was not quite right.

GregS · Post by **GregS** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:33 pm

Jacques,

I thought you were on to something that's why I had to look it up. I don't have an 'a1, but those manuals on CD are sure handy.

Greg

Post by **wesk** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:40 pm

Bob,
Your grill hinges are correct. Trust all of us old timers that have farted around with tub and fender and hood alignment. LEAVE ALL THE BOLT LOOSE UNTIL YOU'VE GOT HER IN THE BALL PARK!

Bob_C · Post by **Bob_C** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:35 pm

Farted around with it more today.

Tried to line up the hood to determine if I had bubba'ed fenders or not. Turned out the hood didnt line up either with the grill.

So....my dad and I loosed up all of the bolts and tried to pull it back...and got it not very far...maybe a quarter of an inch at best. Still waaayyyy shy.

Took all of the bolts out then, got it to where the fenders and hood would fit. BUT absolutely NONE of the holes line up. Not the ones I drilled, and sure as $&% not the original ones. Infact, the ones that are closest to lining up are the ones on my rear panel. The body has to be pushed forward a little bit to get the back holes to totally line up.

This is starting to get on my nerves. I KNOW everything went on here and stayed on here for years. Everything had the same paint scheme. im just confused why nothing is lining the heck up. No amount of pushing will get anything lined up properly.

My dad and I were thinking of bolting the fenders on, then pushing the body up as far as we could to get at least the back panel mounting holes to line up. Not sure how much luck we'll have though. That also means we'll have to enlongate the holes on the frame to get everything to fit.

My dad was saying that he doesnt remember any CAP jeep ever being this difficult to get the body / fenders back together. Was Willys really that sloppy in making these?

Here are some pictures.

Hood overhang. Does this look correct? I know its supposed to hang over, just not sure how much.

Look how far this is going to overhang! Probably be pushed in another 5/32 of an inch to get the holes to line up...but thats it!! Is this normal?

Heres one of the UNCHANGED holes from the rear floorboard. Notice how its a little dented on towards the tailgate side. Could this be the indication that the bolts went in ona n angle to fit in the frame from the factory???

Any suggestions? Does enlongating the holes on the frame sound like an OK idea? Anything better out there?

Post by **wesk** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:58 am

Bob,
Looks like your new hat channels and the new holes you drilled are too far to the rear pushine the body forward. It's an unfortunate tough first time lesson but with these old tubs if you replace hat channels you tack them on and install the tub and line up the rear with the rear crossmember then see if and how much off your new hat channels are then mark the necessary changes and pull the tub untack and rewtack in the new position ane check tub fit again then weld and install tub one more time. This time you drill the holes.

What you have described is a tub that when mounted is an inch too far forward with your new hatchannels bolted up and the old rear bolts are now forward of their holes. Then when you take your new hat channel bolts out and slide the tub back to align the old rear holes the fenders fit and your new hat channels no longer line up with their holes. Now you are fighting the inevitable. You must now correct your incorrect hat channel alignment.

Bob_C · Post by **Bob_C** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:41 am

Wes,

The hat channels I welded on ARE in the correct spot. I made multiple templates and multiple measurements using old parts and I am 110% confident they are in the right spot.

This is futhure reinforced by the fact that the rear hat channel (The one that spans from wheel well to wheel well going across the underside of the rear floorboard) was NEVER played with by me and those holes don't line up either in the current configuration.

In otherwords, when the hat channels I welded on fit, the rear floorboard one fits. When the hat channels I welded don't fit, the rear floorboard one doesn't fit. Right now, with the rear panel hanging off and the fenders fitting, NOTHING fits....with the holes in the taillight socket being maybe 5/32 off.

Heck, even the holes on the verticle support that spans between the rear floorboard and front floorboard that runs horizontally don't fit in the current situation, but when everything else does, they do too!

Post by **wesk** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:18 am

Bob,
Now you have me confused. In the post above you say the tub will set with your new hole lined up and the two cargo bed holes lined up. In the post above that you said when your new holes line up the old holes don't.

Bottom lin is simple. Line up the the rear crossmember, cargo bed and front vertical mounts. Now what happens to your new hat channel holes?

Post by **Ryan_Miller** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:24 pm

Bob,

Like Wes said, let's start with placing the unmolested
body mount hole in thier proper position on the frame.

If the tub lines up (fenders, etc.) with the frame, then
we know that the new holes may be off a little.

DON'T get frustrated. Take your time if you need to.

I once replaced the rear quarter panels on a 67 Fastback,
but did not fit up the rear decklid or the doors to check for alignment
because I was so sure they were in the right spot.

Well, after I painted the body and started to mount the
decklid (trunk lid) and the doors, I noticed they were all
off a little and I ended up having to redo everything!

Now, I always spot weld a couple of places and then do
a dry fitting before final welding.

Even if you need to fill a couple of holes and redrill/paint
a few spots, I think it will not be as bad as you fear.

We'll be here if you need us!

Bob_C · Post by **Bob_C** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:10 pm

wesk wrote:Bob,
Now you have me confused. In the post above you say the tub will set with your new hole lined up and the two cargo bed holes lined up. In the post above that you said when your new holes line up the old holes don't.

Bottom lin is simple. Line up the the rear crossmember, cargo bed and front vertical mounts. Now what happens to your new hat channel holes?

Sorry if I confused you.

If I line up the ones on the rear cross member / cargo bed / front mounts, my hat channel holes line up perfectly. However when this happens, my fenders extend out too far, as seen in the first post.

If I line up the fenders with the grill so they would fit properly, NOTHING fits...except for the holes in the taillight socket (which they dont line up too well either, 5/32 off). And Im not concerned about them, because the back of this jeep suffered some accident damage, so when I welded the new panel in it was kinda in the wrong spot. Those don't concern me though, like I said. Thats an easy fix.

This is why this is so freakin' bizzare. Everything went together 25 years ago!! Why can't it go back now?