M38 Leaf Springs

Tembek · Post by **Tembek** » Mon May 11, 2015 7:26 pm

Ok, guys. I've tried to read all the previous posts on this topic and also 1804B. I'm seriously confused. The manual states clearly that the rear springs are 11 leaf. My M38 has one rear with 11 and one with 10. The one with 11 clearly has an extra leaf jammed in there - thicker and without the side bevels. So I ordered a new set from Kaiser - and they stated clearly the correct replacement for the M38 is 9 leaves. Most of the other sites that supply springs also show 9 leaves for the M38 - even Walck.

So what gives? What are the correct springs, or best springs for me to use?

And then, assuming the springs I received from kaiser are ok, what gives with the miss-sized brackets? That can't be normal can it?

Bretto · Post by **Bretto** » Mon May 11, 2015 7:30 pm

Looks like you figured out how to post the pic.

Tembek · Post by **Tembek** » Mon May 11, 2015 7:33 pm

Actually, no. I opened the pic from your note and was able to copy the url. I don't know why I get a different address when I open a picture in my gallery. I'm using Apple - so that probably has something to do with it!

Am I correct that we can only post pictures that are already in our gallery?

Thanks for the help!

4x4M38 · Post by **4x4M38** » Mon May 11, 2015 7:43 pm

Are you talking about the clips that hold the leaves together
or the second leaf with the eye in the end?

If the clips they are supposed to be further in towards the axle.

That will take up a lot of the slack you see there.

Tembek · Post by **Tembek** » Mon May 11, 2015 7:55 pm

Yes, the clips that hold the leaves together. There are four on each spring. You can see in the picture that they don't bend down against the top leaf.

Jim

Post by **wesk** » Mon May 11, 2015 9:37 pm

The only confusion on spring leaf count appears to be with your selected vendors. The M38 left Willys with 10 in the front and 11 in the rear, PERIOD. TM 9-8012, TM 9-804, TM 9-1804B and ORD 9 SNL G-740 all agree on 10 & 11. Civvy replacements are a problem with leaf count and spring pivot eye bolt diameter. So be cautious just what you buy from vendors who offer REPLACEMENTS and not original production springs.

The only variations that enter this equation are the spring rebound clips. Bolted thru vs the late introduction of outer (small end) wrap type when the Army started procuring replacement springs from a second manufacturer. Do a search here for that information that can be found in several discussions.

oilleaker1 · Post by **oilleaker1** » Tue May 12, 2015 5:02 am

If you are attempting a show quality restoration, you'll need to find originals. I know of no replacement springs that are correct. Walcks sells made in the USA springs which are very nice. Crown and Omix Ada springs are not as nice. Even Rancho springs. They all will work with some modification for the ends. M38 and M38A1 are not the same!!!!!! If you study the M38, the front springs have a clip where they removed the cross bolt and bent the ends over. This is to miss the tie rod directly over it. I have a set just like your pictured ones on my GPW. They work fine, but are not show items. John

Tembek · Post by **Tembek** » Wed May 13, 2015 1:11 pm

Ok, it turns out my springs are original but someone stuck an extra leaf in one. The springs are 11 leaf, beveled edges and the eyes are 7/8", the pivot bolt is 7/16".

Now the good news - I have a spring shop that can re-arch, re-temper them.

Now the problem - I can't find the spec on the spring ARCH. Does anyone have that info? I don't see anything in 1804B or the other manuals.

Help!

Jim

Post by **wesk** » Wed May 13, 2015 8:39 pm

1804B gives you the eye to eye unloaded length. The spring shop can work from that figure.

Tembek · Post by **Tembek** » Thu May 14, 2015 6:22 am

Wow am I confused.

1804B gives the eye-to-eye distance as 42". But I'm pretty sure that is the length along the curve of the spring - in other words if you flattened the spring it would be 42". That length matches the leaf length in the parts manual.

My springs are exactly 42" eye-to-eye along the curve of the spring. Unloaded they are 41.5" eye-to-eye straight across.

Here's what manufacturers advise:

The Right Way To Measure Leaf Springs
You need to measure the spring as though the spring were flat. Relax, that doesn’t mean you need to learn advanced calculus. All you need is this handy picture and your own trusty measuring tape.

Leaf Spring Diagram (shows measurement along the curve)

Divisional Length
A.) Follow the curve of the spring, measuring from the center of the front eye back to the center bolt
B.) Then, measure from the center of the other eye back to the center bolt.
Record the length like so: “24 inches x 24 inches” or maybe “21 inches by 27 inches,” depending on your measurements and center bolt location.
These measurements are called the divisional length.
You see, when you give the length of a spring as two lengths going from the center of each eye to the center bolt, you kill two birds with one stone and give us the location of the center bolt as well.
Spring Arch
Spring arch is measured by splitting the center of the spring’s eyes with a straight edge. (Grab a yardstick or anything you can reasonably call straight.)

DanS · Post by **DanS** » Fri May 15, 2015 6:21 am

Re-arching is fine, but, I wouldn't expect the new arch to last. They seem to have memory that returns them to their old condition pretty soon. Good luck.

Tembek · Post by **Tembek** » Fri May 15, 2015 7:10 am

You're probably right but I think I'll give it a try.

Tembek · Post by **Tembek** » Mon May 18, 2015 10:15 am

Can anyone point me at a CJ2A manual or reference that provides the leaf lengths for the front and rear HD springs. As near as I can determine the M38 springs are identical to the CJ2A later HD springs except of the pivot eye. I'd like to confirm the leaf lengths from a known reference.

M38 Rear: WO-801659 (7/8" pivot eye) = CJ2A WO-645864 SRI no. 97-255 (FCB 3/4" pivot eye)

M38 Front: WO-801619 (7/8" pivot eye) = CJ2A WO-645548 SRI no. 97-170 (FCB 3/4" pivot eye)

The unloaded arch according to SRI will be 4 3/8" and 3 1/2" respectively.

SRI (Spring Research Intl.) is an industry database that leaf spring manufacturers depend on for standard spring dimensions. The CJ2A springs are listed, but the M38 are not.

Post by **wesk** » Tue May 19, 2015 10:17 am

Maintain a wee bit of patience. I am waiting for Keith to get back to me with the factory drawing info for the springs. He was at the Agri-Jeep show and should be able to round up the info tomorrow thru Fri. You will find the CJ2A/3A spring data much more complex then just standard & heavy Duty!

Tembek · Post by **Tembek** » Tue May 19, 2015 10:21 am

Wow, that's great Wes. Thanks! Standing by sir.

Jim