Engine questions

[idiocrates]

I'm going to attempt to rebuild the F style engine in my m38a-1 and I have a few questions and need some opinions:

1. Assuming this is going to be a working vehicle and not just for show....is there an advantage to having the block and head milled for the hardened valve seats?

2. I've seen a lot of discussion about replacing valve guides. If they aren't totally out of spec would most of you go to the added effort of replacing them while the engine was open just to extend the length of time till the next overhaul?

3. Are there no replacable bearings on the back end and two intermediate jounals on the camshaft like there is on the front end?

4. Is it better to overbore and sleeve a cylinder and then bore it out to match the existing pistons or to bore it out to the largest piston available with no sleeve? I guess this is a goofy question......but I have no stock pile of pistons to choose from and I'm clueless how you go about telling the machine shop what you want to have done.

I've read John Barton's four part L engine rebuild guide over on the G503...and it's most helpful. Is there anything similar for the F engine?

I promise....i will read any and all comments on engine rebuilding.....and they are all most appreciated. Thanks.

Jim

[wesk]

1-The hardened seats are only needed for the exhaust and then only if you intend to run at highway speeds a lot.

2-They are cheap and there is no better time to change them and bring valve performance back to new standards then when you are overhauling the engine.

3-The Willys blocks only used a bearing on the front journal since it was loaded by the gear set. The small block Ford (260-302) cam bearings can be adapted and used for the other two if they are worn excessively.

4- There are plenty of replacement oversize pistons. The Willys folks made oversizes up to .080 OS which I think is a little too much. If the four bores will clean up at .040 or less I would use that oversize. >060 would be the max and you should seriously consider sleeving at that point.

[idiocrates]

Thanks for the reply Mr. Knettles.......that's exactly the information I was needing.

Jim

[idiocrates]

Okay.....so if I opt to go with the hardened inserts on the valve seats for longevity reasons......and purchase new valves.......do the seats and valves have to be ground or do they each come with the proper bevel?

Jim

[wesk]

You are usually better received and better treated at an auto machine shop if you show up with your bare block and head and simply hire them to do the valve work as specified by you using their parts so long as you are satisfied with the quality of their parts. You also get better warranty response when you do it this way.

On the other hand when you show up with your bare block and head and a bag of your new parts they will usually make up the parts markup loss by charging more for the shop work and they get a side benefit of not having to warranty the parts or the installation of the parts.

Yes seats and valves must be ground to the correct angles and once hand lapped they must stay in that position.

[idiocrates]

I've got an appointment with the guy at the machine shop on Monday to find out how all this is going to work. I really like the idea of supplying the parts so I can support those people on the Internet who have been so helpful thus far......but I guess if there's a significant difference in the cost I may have to rethink this.

So if the machine shop ends up polishing and installing the crankshaft, do I have any control over what kind of rear seal I get?

If the machine shop installs the camshaft, tappets, pushrods, valve guides, valve springs, inserts, crankshaft, pistons, rings, and all the peripheral stuff that goes with these parts.......would it be just plain smarter to let them complete the assembly of the whole engine.....or does all the gasketing make this too labor intensive for them?

My bottom line is....I want a good running, reliable engine that doesn't leak oil all over the place......plus I want to be able to pick up the knowledge that goes along with doing some of this work myself. Hopefully, between your two replies, reading through the archives here and at other places, studying the manuals, and visiting with the shop on Monday I'll be able to figure out just where this seperation of work needs to be. Thanks.

Jim

[wesk]

using their parts so long as you are satisfied with the quality of their parts

This above is from my earlier response. You are the customer. You negotiate the level and type of overhaul you want and the quality of parts used. They are the service provider and should be oriented towards making you the customer satisfied with their product. Only you can decide what level of mechanical ability you have to apply to the overhaul.

[Ryan_Miller]

Jim,

How did your visit with the machine shop go?

[idiocrates]

as usual......no rain for 8 months....and the day I make an appointment to go to town we get wet and nasty. Ended up having to cancel until tomorrow.....oh well.....at least we finely got some much needed moisture. Might have to do this more often. Any way......also gives me more time to ask more questions.....so who do you guys think sells the best, most complete, and highest quality engine overhaul kits?

Jim

[idiocrates]

Okay.........looks like Mr. Knettles was right. The shop I visited today wants the whole engine...flywheel to pulley and head to oil pan. They will disassemble, clean, analyze, and purchase parts as necessary. The only problem they have is that they have never done a Willys F-134 engine and weren't sure where or if they could find all the parts that may be needed. Of course the guy assured me they would even if they had to manufacture the part. Every attempt to come up with a rough estimate of cost pretty much ended up in.....well, we'll just have to see. He claims to be able to do all the machining necessary including boring and honing cylinders, installing valve inserts, replacing valve guides, and grinding valves and seats. While talking I learned that most of their engine work is in the performance v-8 line for racing and that most of these jobs run in the 1.5 - 2K range. By the end of the conversation we agreed.....I'll bring the engine in......they'll clean it up and determine whether or not the block is rebuildable....if it isn't, that's it. If it is......I'll get the parts based upon their directions on sizing and they'll machine the block as necessary. They'll install the basic stuff like cylinder sleeves, valve guides, and valve inserts.....and based upon cost at that point I can either let them install the cam and crankshaft and pistons.....or I bring it all home and do it here. All in all I'd say the meeting was about what I expected. The shop was clean....very clean....and all the machinery looked well used but not abused. The owner was a bit hard at first but I think he warmed up a bit after visiting for a while......guess that sort of goes with working with the public. I have one more shop I want to visit in the next few days and then it'll be decision time on my part. The one thing I forgot to discuss was any kind of warranty on their work.....guess this will eventually depend on who does what during the rebuild.

Jim

[GIJOE290]

You might ask the shop to provide a couple of customer's phone numbers in which they did work for and call them about their experiences with the shop in question.

[wesk]

Make sure they have the correct manuals for your engine. Have them show them to you! If they do not insist they use yours. Moses Ludel's early CJ rebuild guide has a lot of excellant engine overhaul info.
For a quality shop not familiar with a Willys F134 there are several points you need to make clear.

1-It's a classic. Ask them not to alter it from stock without your approval. This includes doing any machining that physically changes the identity or appearance of the engine. Especially decking the block which can erase your serial number.

2-Make sure they are aware that the cam shaft originally only had one bearing on the front journal and the middle and rear journal ride in the block. If the clearance checks of the center and rear holes in the block show excess then they should know that the Ford 260/289/302 cam bearings can be used with slight modification to make the clearance acceptable.

3-Be sure they understand that you prefer an overbore no larger than .040. If more is needed you will want to sleeve the block to standard.

4-Be sure they are aware that excessively worn lifter bores cause noise and low oil pressure and there are oversize lifters available.

5-Be sure they are aware that there are two opposite rods and they must be installed in a certain direction.

6-Remind them the bolt for the flywheel must be installed in the crank flange front to rear before the rear main cap is installed.

7-Be sure they are aware that the oil pump must be correctly indexed during buildup to insure distributor gets indexed correctly. It is best they do this while the cam gear cover is NOT installed so they can use the gear timing marks.

8-Be sure you take closeup photos of the engine and any of it's important details and provide them with copies.

9-It is best to request written and signed estimates and written and signed warranties. Make sure the work order allows no cost overuns not pre-approved by you.

10. Make sure it is clear to all involved how far the buildp will go and if they do a complete buildup that they bench run the engine before you accept it.

11-Decide now who will handle each accessories' overhaul. IE starter, carb and so on.

12-Be sure their parts list includes the part numbers and source of all parts they install in your engine. IE Gasket set, overhaul, PN 123456 Victor Carquest.