Fixing up the ol engine (F-head 134 I4)

[ChiGuy82]

So, there I was, sitting by the fire, waiting to get home from Iraq, with one of my guys on my team, who also is an avid Jeep guy, and I was talking to him about rebuilding the engine on my M38A1. The look on his face was priceless! (I have never attempted to do something like this before)
According to him, if will cost me around $7000 to completely overhaul my F-head 134 I4 engine. He is telling me that it would be a lot smarter, cheaper and easier to just get a V6 from a junkyard with less then 75,000 miles on it and EFI. I live in the Virginia Beach/Norfolk area and have no mechanic friends with their own garages or anything like that.

Wondering what everyone thinks about this?? All comments are appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike

[52M38]

Things on the east coast must cost alot more than the west coast. I wouldn't think it would cost that much to rebuild a 4 cyl. Check with the local engine builder. You might be suprised. Here on the west coast you can have an engine rebuilt(V8 no less) for around $1500-$2500 depending on the condition of the block and such. If you can use the crank and some times the cam,if it's not to worn out, that will save you alot of dough. And rebuilding it yourself is not all that hard. Just get a good book to help you along. I would have the block hot tanked and checked for cracks. Maybe a little machine work,if it's needed. $7000 sounds a little out there. Good luck what ever you decide. I wouldn't put a V6 in it anyway. That's just not right. Brett

[Zane]

hog wash, new rebuilt engines are sold exchange from surplus city for like 2200.00 , you can come out alot cheaper than that if you do it yourself, and let a machine shop do the machine work, putting a v6 in your jeep will destroy the collector value , but the bottom line is its your jeep , just my 2 cents

[Jeeps4Brains]

My F head took just over 1K. That included the machine shop work and the cost of new pistons, rings, guides and bearings.

I had the machine shop match the pistons to the rods and then took it all home and assembled it my self.

The machine shop was a small local guy. I found him by asking the mechanic I take my family cars to. I asked him if he had an old engine who he would take it to.

[wesk]

Sitting around a camp fire in Iraq! Hope you got your IFF sorted out for the night time IR painters!

This reply is meant to be general in nature and not aimed at any single individual.

(I have never attempted to do something like this before)

And you never should unless there's someone familiar with the process nearby to help you through the rough spots. Many folks will say

"Anyone can rebuild a 4 cylinder engine"

but that anyone does not include idiots, folks with no mechanical aptitude, folks without basic automotive mechanic's tools and folks that cannot figure out how to change a tire.

When a person who is new at this sits down and builds an accurate needs and cost list for rebuilding an engine he must consider several things. First his own personal abilities. Next his tool box. Then his work area. This equates to a need for an above average mechanical aptitude, a quality collection of hand tools and power tools, and a suitable place to do the work. Short change yourself in any of these needs and the quality of your product will suffer.

1-Aptitude: How much experience do you have?
Have you ever pulled an engine out of a car?
Have you ever removed and re-installed a head?
Have you ever removed and replaced a cam and it's gears?
Have you ever replaced a clutch?
Have you ever replaced a rear main seal?
Have you ever removed and installed a distributor?
Have you ever changed a water pump or thermostat?
Have you ever replaced a rod bearing?
Do you know how to use a torque wrench?
Do you know how to use a micrometer?
Do you know how to use a dial indicator.
Do you know the difference between a 3 and 4 ring piston?
Do you know how to prime the oil system?
Do you know how to do compression tests?
What drives the distributor?
Do you know the difference between a regular bolt and a dowell bolt?
Do you know what a Grade 5 and Grade 8 bolt are?
Do you know how to determine TDC for a piston?
Do you know how to set valve clearances?

2-Basic Tools: Do you have the following tools:
1/4 drive socket set that includes shallow and deep sockets in US sizes 7/32" to 1/2".
3/8 drive socket set that includes shallow and deep sockets in US sizes 3/8" to 7/8".
1/2 drive socket set that includes shallow and deep sockets in US sizes 7/16" to 1 3/4 ".
plus a set of shallow & deep impact sockets US 7/16" through 1".
!/2" drive breaker bar.
3/8" or 1/2" drive speeder handle.
A set of screw driver bits and hex bits and a bit holder for them.
A 1/4" or 3/8" drive inch pound torgue wrench in the 15 to 100 " lb range.
A 3/8" or 1/2" drive torque wrench in the 20 to 150 Ft Lb range.
A hand impact tool.
A set of flex (universal) sockets in at least the 3/8 drive size?
A set of open and box end wrenches 1/4" through 1 1/2".
A set of Crescent wrenches 3", 6" 9" and 12".
A set of flare nut wrenches US 3/8" to 11/16".
A set of flat tipped screw drivers in various blade widths and lengths.
A set of phillips screw drivers in #1, 2, 3 & 4 bit sizes and various lengths.
A set of allen wrenches or allen bit set.
An inch, numbers and letter drill bit set.
Assorted pliers, straight, channel lock, needle nose, dikes and duck bill.
A set of spring clip pliers and snap ring pliers.
3 oz and 8 oz ballpean hammers.
1 Lb hand drilling hammer.
Rubber mallet,
Brass hammer
Steel and brass punch sets.
Drift pin set.
Chisel set.
File set
Hack saw
Rolling wedge set.
small and medium crow bars.


3-Special tools:
Air tools including a compressor, 3/8" or 1/2" impact driver, air drill, die grinder.
Rotary files set.
Sanding and cutting disc sets.
Cherry picker.
Engine stand
Side valve engine valve spring spring compressor.
Piston Ring compressor.
Bench Arbor or hydraulic press.
Cam gear puller and assorted 2 and 3 jaw pullers.
Slide hammer puller kit.
Bushing driver set.
1" to 6" micrometer set.
Dial caliper.
Steel rule set.
Feeler gages.
Compass set.
Level
Tap and die set.
Jack stands.
Hydraulic floor jack.


4-Work area:
Adequate size. Must have a 3 foot space all the way around the jeep.
Must have paved floor.
Proper lighting.
Proper ventilation.
Work bench at least 6 foot long, 30" high.
Bench vise.

$7,000 sounded ludicrous at first until you add up what you need available to get the job done right. If you have at least half of the experience listed above, and 2/3 rd's of the tools and a decent work area already in your possession then $1400 to $2000 is a reasonable estimate of an overhaul.

[whydahdvr]

Wow! Sitting around a fire in Iraq! Where the heck do you get to do that?? I'm here at VBC and Garrison broke out. We're lucky to have BBQ grills. No outside furniture, certainly no fires or outside flames of any sort (aside from the grill). Wes's remark on the IR got me smiling. Glad to hear you're due to rotate home.
As for the engine, don't listen to your buddy. As one comment made, it will elliminate the value of your jeep. They aren't that hard to work on and if you plan on keeping it for any length of time whatever you pay someone to rebuild your jeep engine is an investment in the future and will have long-term savings for you.

[ChiGuy82]

Well, at the outlying cops and fobs we werent really allowed fires, even got yelled at for the coals on my hooka by the CSM of the base! But here on the the AF base its like we were sent to the middle of nowhere Navada! Its anything goes on this base, oh and nightly IDF! Got the porch, sundeck and firepit! Nice!

Thanks for all the comments! I will definatly shop around! I knew there were guys on other sites that brought their engines in, with competely new parts, for less then $2k I want to keep it 4 cyl and 24 volt! Thats how it came, so thats how it stays. Plus its a 1952 #10015 engine, frame and plate.

Answers:
Have you ever pulled an engine out of a car? No
Have you ever removed and re-installed a head? No
Have you ever removed and replaced a cam and it's gears? No
Have you ever replaced a clutch? No
Have you ever replaced a rear main seal? No
Have you ever removed and installed a distributor? No
Have you ever changed a water pump or thermostat? No
Have you ever replaced a rod bearing? No
Do you know how to use a torque wrench? Yes
Do you know how to use a micrometer? Yes
Do you know how to use a dial indicator. Know what it is, never used one
Do you know the difference between a 3 and 4 ring piston?
Most automotive pistons have three rings: The top two while also controlling oil are primarily for compression sealing (compression rings); the lower ring is for controlling the supply of oil to the liner which lubricates the piston skirt and the compression rings (oil control rings).
Do you know how to prime the oil system? No
Do you know how to do compression tests? No
What drives the distributor? The Starter
Do you know the difference between a regular bolt and a dowell bolt? Dowel bolts sit better
Do you know what a Grade 5 and Grade 8 bolt are? harder steel
Do you know how to determine TDC for a piston? No
Do you know how to set valve clearances? No

Do I pass?

[wesk]

The USAF bases there have the same advantage our USAF bases in SEA had in the 60's/70's. The Army was responsible for the security of all the land outside the perimeter fence and our AF Security police for all the land inside the fence. So we had a pretty sweet time of it as well.

Well you got way less than half so you really should team up with someone nearby with experience in the rebuilding process. There are plenty of those types in the Chicago area.

I put that what drives the distributor question in there because even the pro engine builders who normally build modern engines are no aware that the cam drives the oil pump and not the distributor. The oil pump drives the distributor. It is for that reason that the oil pump must indexed properly before the distributor is installed or you can end up with not enough swing room for the distributor housing for you to adjusy=t it's timing. 6 or 7 out of every 10 home mechanics who send their engines out discover their shop's oversight the hard way when they can't get the distributor timed correctly and now with the engine in the frame it is that much harder to remove and re-install the oil pump correctly.

The difference between a 3 and 4 ring Willys piston is the 4th ring which is added asa lower scraper.

[BullRun]

There are many many shops, garages, and machine shops for the military and shipping industry in this area. This is a vast understatement.

You should have no problem fixing your original engine. Just talking about this subject today about one of my M38A1's in need of an engine rebuild. I have got recent quotes from $650 to $1750 depending what needs to be done and what you do yourself. More if they assemble the engine. Try racing engine machine shops (remember NASCAR originated in the VA area). The ones that do custom engine building will not even question the project as it is so simple compared to the usual racing engines. I use a custom racing engine machine shop in my part of the state. They love the old engines fortunately. I figure about 2 and half months to remove, process, assemble and reinstall the engine on a part-time basis for the work. The machine shop will need about a month.

Car Quest has in house machine shops in their distribution warehouses and NAPA usually knows somebody. There are many friends in VA to help you. I don't know of a better place to have a military jeep that needs help.

I can't recommend anyone offhand but they are there. 4th largest industrial base in the USA at your doorstep.

[wesk]

Hello folks,
I moved this from For Sale to Technical because it is more technical in nature.