Choosing Hood number for my M-38

[pilotomutante]

Hi folks, finally came to the point of choosing a hood number to paint on my M-38. Problem is that when I started the restoration some years ago I sandblasted everything including the hood without giving a thought of searching for a hood number. My car is S/N MC13600, manufactured january 1951. Can you guys tell me an approximate range of numbers that would be correct for choosing? What is the correct size and typography for the "USA" and numbers?

I also have the doubt about the hood star pointing to the front. Is this correct? What diameter for that one and for the rear ones would be correct?

Unit markings: I intend to make it a 2nd infantry division (Indian head) car. What markings and where?

As I´m sure this ain´t the first time someone has brought this subject up if you can please redirect me to a previous thread or document that would be great!

And now some pics:


By pilotomutante at 2012-08-15


By pilotomutante at 2012-08-15


By pilotomutante at 2012-08-15

Thanks all of you for your time and knowledge:

Jose at Ibiza, Spain

[evanso1975]

Hello Jose,

That's a very fine job you've done to the M38 there!

Can't help you with the hood number range, but my copy of AR850-5 (1945 to 1954 version) shows the star pointing towards the windscreen. I'm not sure if it's artistic licence, but the star looks to go partly over the cowl as well as the hood. It gives the star sizes too. See below:


For the typography of the lettering, here's a sample of a set of August 1953 stencils that I have:



Not sure if that's the style used at the Willys factory, but they are from the early 1950's. Think the jeeps would probably have used 2-inch letters, not the 4-inch set that I have (mine are probably for use on trucks).

Hope this helps........
Owen.

[capescw]

I once asked that question of 'wesk' (Wes Knettle), and received the following info:

"What most folks do when no original hood number was left on the jeep is take the first 2 or 3 digits from a period correct hood number and add their jeep's serial number to the end. IE. 209XXXXX for you would work out to 20965355. The Army registration numbering system 209XXXXX numbers were what all the M38's left Willys with in 1952 because up until 1954/55 the Army was prime contractor for all tactical wheeled vehicles for all the services. The only thing the USAF did to new 1952 M38 hood numbers was tack an "F" after the USA. They maintained the vehicles using the original Army supplied registration numbers. However by the late 50's any pre 55 vehicle in the USAF had the new registration number system applied. These were initially A-XXXX type numbers but in 1959/60 they switched to contract year prefix such as 52K-XXXX."

In your case, 20913600 would seem appropriate.

Additionally, the following is a quote from an article in 'Military Vehicles', October, 2003:

"The invasion star was not normally found on vehicles
in the Pacific Theater. Additionally, it is strictly a WWII
marking. The invasion star is not appropriate for any
vehicle in the post WWII-era. Ambulances did not carry
the National Symbol in any form."

However, it's all up to you, it is yours!

[oilleaker1]

Ditto on the hood # and from my research, that document was used on WW2 Jeeps for the stars. The M38's did not come with stars. They were applied in the field when we did not have air control, and sometimes removed after we did. It was a unit by unit thing. When applied, it usually was a 20 inch star pointing forward 2 inches back from the front of the hood. The rear quarter stars were 6 inch again. No other stars elsewhere. The M38A1 did have more. If you look at historic pictures of M38's, most did not have stars. The lineup of brand new M38's at Willys Overland is quite interesting. The sequence of hood #'s is not a consecutive deal with different batches of Jeeps. Calculating your hood # is not like WW2 Jeeps! I'm still on the fence about stars on mine. John

[wesk]

The WWII AR850 had the star pointing rear. Post war point forward.

On vehicles with fold down windshields the star is to be placed so it can be seen from the air with the windshield up or down.

The national star was only applied when the theater commander directed them to be. This was usually only in theaters of operation where air superiority was not dominated by us.

AR850-5 with changes up thru 1949 was used for the most part with MV's up through 54 or so. TB 746-93-1 (OCT 64 being the newest) is a more popular late 50's thru 60's reference. Between AR850-5 and TB 746-93-1 there were several other pubs that were also used:

TB ORD 626 OCT 57
TB ORD 2300-10/1 APR 58
TB 9-263 APR 59
TB ORD 677 JUL 62
TB ORD 1058 JUN 63

Then there were Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps pubs as well.

In most cases when a unit commander directed the markings of his/her vehicles they were done IAW the applicable publications in force at the time and any lower echelon published supplements. When conflicts in markings existed with nearby units the commanders simply worked out a compromise locally. So using just the primary period publication as written for the US Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines will not result in a correct period marking of your jeep without a wee bit of research into any existing lower echelon supplements to those pubs and any local policy/directives in effect at that unit at that time. So it is best to research dated unit historical photos to determine what markings were used by any certain unit at any certain location during any specified period.

I don't particularly care to see folks fudge a phoney period correct hood number because it will skewer later researcher's results when they are confused with real original hood numbers. The hobby standard is to combine the first two or three digits of a correct period hood number with the serial number of your vehicle.

S/N MC13600, manufactured january 1951

This jeep would have had a 236XXXXX hood number. Using the method I listed above would give you a hood number: 23613600

[ocwd]

Here is a picture of my hood. The previous owner beed-blasted the hood to reveal the star and numbers. Looks like the star point is to the front on my Jeep.

Dave

[timjuhl]

Good timing as I am close to painting - Let me see if I got this straight for a 1952 M38A1:

1.) Star point forward
2.) Star positioned so as to be clear windshield when folded down
3.) Hood numbers centered in space roughly between the windshield and the BO driving light.

Tnx,

Tim

[wesk]

2-As much of the star as possible shall be visible from the air with the windshield folded down.

3-Hood numbers are centered in the available space on the sides of the hood. This means centered on the left between the front and rear edge of the hood and centered on the right between the front edge and the snorkle opening.

[whydahdvr]

I found some pics online through a Google search that show mixed use of the plain star - some pointing towards the front, some towards the windshield. As Wes noted it was a theatre/unit specific direction. So I guess the question becomes what unit and location would your Korean War jeep have been assigned to and operated in?
While I was in Iraq we still had black stars on our vehicles. They were small but still there. These days we have IR identifiers and electronic recognition and handshake systems to recognize friendly forces.

[oilleaker1]

Nothing is ever mentioned on windshield canvas covers for the M38's. Headlights, and even the mirror also. WW2 Jeeps had these. So, most of the star visable throught the glass? Or behind it like WW2. Very confusing hodge podge of applications. I've not seen much for photos of Korean unit Jeeps with stars, especiall the M38. The m38A1's seem to have more pictures. Anyone have some unit pictures? Thanks for the latest debate. I'm following with interest! John

[pilotomutante]

Indeed an interesting topic! Thanks all you gents for your input. I have already ordered the stencils for both the hood and lateral stars. Upon ordering the stencils for the hood number there develops another rather trivial question: What would the correct letter/number font be? According to the book "Standard catalog of U.S. military vehicles" in it´s appendix about markings it says something like "Vertical Gothic" style, but not sure what font that is. Anyone can give me something more specific so I can order correct stencils? Also, how tall are the numbers on the hood to be?

Thanks:

Jose

[wesk]

So, most of the star visable throught the glass? Or behind it like WW2.

Same as WWII. Behind it. Remember that it was customary to eliminate the reflective glare of the windshield glass to aircraft by folding the glass down and covering it with canvas, cloth or mud.

[pilotomutante]

Hi again Wesk. One more question. You suggest a hood number around 236XXXXX, but searching on vintage pics. of M-38 on this site almost all of them are in the range of 209XXXXX. Did only found one picture (Number 47) with a 238XXXXX ¿!?. Any ideas?

Thanks.

[wesk]

Actually we do have a fairly thorough data base collected and based on those jeeps found with serial plates and what looked like original hood numbers we have been able to nail these down a bit.

236XXXX was used on roughly the first 4000 M38's about Sep 50 thru Jan 51
238XXXX was used on roughly the next 8000 M38's about Feb 51 thru May 51
208XXXXX began May 51
209XXXXX began Sep 51

With over 62,000 M38's it should be clear above why you see so many photos of 208XXXXX and 209XXXXX jeeps in those photos.

[pilotomutante]

Matter settled! It´s great to have so much wisdom at ones reach. Always thankful:

Jose