Jeep info

robbyrella · Post by **robbyrella** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:11 am

Hello everyone! I'm new in this forum and sorry for my english..I hope you can understand me. I have some question (perhaps obvious). I have a M38 I'd like to know a little more on it and I'd like to restore. Currently works and use it for snow plowing, but would require some work ..

At the front left of the frame I found this serial number: 28901, without the written MC. Is this normal? and if so, is an American jeep or Canadian? Unfortunately I do not have data plates on the dashboard and on the fender behind the passenger, and I can't verify, but the same is written in the logbook.

I found this engine serial number printed on the pad behind the water pump and oil filter: M 56 347446. What does this mean? Should not be MCxxxxx or RMCxxxx?

Thank you!

Roberto

M38CDNBill · Post by **M38CDNBill** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:38 am

Hello Roberto,

Welcome on this site. Do you live in Europe? According to the number you give us (Wes correct me if I'm wrong), but could it be an M38 was made later in the 50s for the needs of the Turkish army?

Cheers

robbyrella · Post by **robbyrella** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:39 am

Hi M38CDNBILL,

Yes, I live in Europe. Thanks for your answer! So you think this jeep would never served nor for the U.S. Army nor for the Canadians, but for the Turkish army. I understand you correctly?

M38CDNBill · Post by **M38CDNBill** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:57 am

Hello Roberto,

The Canadian M38 are almost identical to the U.S M38. However, if you have a Canadian one, the number that appears on the left side frame (between the shell and the front bumper) must be like this 52-3XXXX which XXXX corresponds to a number between 0001 and 2135. Also on the front of the tool box (under the passenger seat) there is no script "Jeep" on Canadian M38.

In 2002, I met in Luxembourgh a friend who had bought three M38 which had been demobilized from the Turkish army. He told me that there had been several sold in Europe. I later read that an M38 command was given (in 1956 or 1957 if I remember well) by the Turkish army, but I've always had a doubt about it. Maybe you have one of these M38 although it's possible that this is also a US M38. Wes will be able to tell us more about it.

Cheers from Canada

robbyrella · Post by **robbyrella** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:11 am

Thanks for your information. I didn't know that there were also in Turkey. However, my M38 was bought in Italy in 1966 and came from Germany in the same year.

M38CDNBill · Post by **M38CDNBill** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:15 am

robbyrella wrote:...my M38 was bought in Italy in 1966 and came from Germany in the same year...

Probably a US M38. Could you send some pictures?

Cheers from Canada

Post by **wesk** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:24 am

There has never been any evidence found that the Willys factory produced any M38's for anyone after production ended in June 1952. There is evidence that some were turned over to Turkey by the US Army under the Military Assistance Program (MAP) in the 50's. The Greeks got their's under the MAP as well. Even Canada took a handfull of brand new M38's from the US Army in 1951/52 just before Ford of Canada started building them.

As for a copy of the serial number on the left front frame rail that is easily explained. There have been quite a few M38's that have shown up all over the globe that way. Many Government Rebuild Depots would stamp the serial or the hood number on the left front frame rail when a jeep was torn down for overhaul in a meek attempt to keep the chassis and the data plates together through the rebuild process.

robbyrella · Post by **robbyrella** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:31 am

Of course, tomorrow I'll try to post some pictures. Now it's too dark outside to take them.

Cheers

robbyrella · Post by **robbyrella** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:44 am

Hello Wesk,
thanks for the reply. Therefore, the serial number on the left front frame rail that I found might also not be the true serial number right? Without data plates there any other possibility to trace the origins?

Do you know something also about numbers I found on the engine please?

Thanks

Post by **wesk** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:24 pm

WWII jeeps had dash data plates which are screwed and/or brass riveted on with serial number that matched the frame serial plate which was riveted on.
These were not easily removed and when the dash plates disappeared with the glove box door the frame plate would usually still be there.

The M series jeeps after WWII had their plates screwed on the dash and these plates were extremely easy to remove. There were no factory stamped plates or numbers on the frame. I have worked in motor pools where when a need to restamp servicing data or something on the plates arose in a service letter the motor pool Sgt would send a private out to the storage yard and have him remove all the plates and haul them into the shop where thyey were re-stamped. An example is the M38 and M38A1 tire pressure restamping. a day or two later another private would haul them back out and screw them back on all the dashes. I find it hard to believe he made any effort to get them back into the same jeep they came out of. Some outfits would have been a little more conscientious in their work and would have maybe written hood number on back of plate but many didn't.

The traveling data plates also did some traveling when the jeeps were surplused. Many civilian owners without titles for a jeep would go buy a set of plates from a scrap jeep. Many tubs got replaced over the years for crash damage or rusting and many owners forgot to switch the data plates.

Every M series jeep I lay eyes on today I am suspect of their originality and correct serial numbers. There is absolutely no way anyone can guarantee that the serial plate on a M38 or M38A1 or M170 dash is without any doubt original to that jeep. Unless of course they personaly bought the M38/M38A1/M170 from the Willys factory and it has never left their possession since.

Going back to your three questions:

Therefore, the serial number on the left front frame rail that I found might also not be the true serial number right?

Right.

Without data plates there any other possibility to trace the origins?

Without both the dash serial plate and the patent plate (on the right rear wheel house) you cannot determine the origin of the tub. The origin of the frame will always be impossible to ascertain positively. The origin as to manufacturer of the drive train can be reasonably determined by their numbers and dates.

Do you know something also about numbers I found on the engine please?

This number does not make sense M 56 347446 and would not be correct for an M38 if it was found in the oval flat hiding behind the oil filter bracket. MCXXXXX is the only serial number engine installed in an M38 by Willys. That MCXXXXX number would be found on the small flat just above the water pump on the front of the engine. Also the correct casting number found down on the lower right side of the block would be 641087.

RMCXXXXX serialed engines were brand new Willys built replacement engines sold to the US Army under contract as spare engines. These were produced in groups applicable to several of the original 5 Army contracts. During 1950 thru May 1952 these were produced using the 641087 casting. Starting around Jun 1952 they were produced using the casting 804380. To date no one has produced a copy of this 804380 casting with an MCXXXXX serial. Only 804380 castings found to date for M38's have had the RMCXXXXXX serials.

robbyrella · Post by **robbyrella** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:44 pm

Thanks Wesk! You have been very exhaustive. Tomorrow will check the engine better and I hope to be able to say something more, perhaps with some pictures.

Greetings

Post by **wesk** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:50 pm

Over the years I have accrued thousands of photos, illustrations and charts most of which are technical and contain a wealth of information. I have a large percentage of them loaded here in my photo album:
http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules. ... _album.php

This is an example of what I have free for all to use but of course they are seldom used!

robbyrella · Post by **robbyrella** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:50 am

Hi Wes, I checked again and the motor is equal to that in your first picture. The serial number is printed on the oval plate just behind the oil filter; behind the water pump is empty. I'll see later to clean up a bit the bottom of the engine in order to better read the casting number.

thanks

robbyrella · Post by **robbyrella** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:19 am

I did some picture..

1) engine serial numeber on the pad behind the oil filter (there is printed: M56 347446):

2) casting number and foundry codes (9-29 638632 W3 A N1 - CR N2):

3) serial number on the left front frame rail:

Wes, can you tell me something more with these details?

Thanks!

Post by **wesk** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:03 am

Roberto,
I edited your post. The reason your pictures did not appear is because you used the larger version of the photo. We have limited photo sizes that can be displayed in our post so that the screen size of the post doesn't get so large that most folks have to scroll left to right just to read a single sentence. Please limit the size of photos you wish to insert within your posts to less the 1200K.

That block is a WWII Block which was used in the MB jeep.

The serial number is an odd stamping or possibly a foul-up by the factory or a re-stamping effort in the field. The 9-29 refers to Sep 29th being the casting date. There is a machining date on the lower surface of the block adjacent to the rear main bearing and hidden by the oil pan flange where you can determine the year of machining. The letters after the casting number 638632 are for the foundry staff's info. The last four letters ID a significant amount NI nickel and CR Chromium.