Early or Late

[Naugha]

You sure can mix and match any parts you want for a motor pool or resto-mod --- so long as they fit together and work properly. Only one out of a thousand folks will ever know the difference. I think for us, 70 years later, these notes in the ORD9 are simply meant as pretty good clues about what works and what doesn't.

The good advice remains --- not to assume anything. Trust, but verify (before grabbing a wrench). Or things can get expensive fast (faster than need be anyway). We're free to make our M38's into anything we want, or as far as the wallet will allow. I remain thankful for this forum --- it's the best trust but verify and sanity check on the planet. Doing my M38 without this great tool would be a lot more painful than need be.

Absolutely..... and I will get back to specific early/late questions about my pile of goodies that came from three GoDevils.

From the manuals, pics, and threads I know I have both early & late M38 parts in the pile but not everything from one. This is why I have been so curious about the late/early thing as it relates to 'motor pool resto' which may be my goal.

... and maybe this thread contains some variations in opinions about the granular details of a successful 'motor pool resto'.... and maybe the score sheet at a MVPA event is the only way to know.

[Naugha]

Here is my:

Auto-Lite 24V Starter Assembly (early)
MBP-4301UT Used on engines through SN 74419.
As identified from ORD 9 SNL / Parts and various album pics.

My engine is marked MC83869 which in a more perfect world would have the 'late' MCZ4001UT or maybe DR-X10483 starter.

But if the MBP-4301UT starter will take me on the 'motor pool resto path' then that's fine with me.
Opinions and comments welcome.





Totally ignore the following if TMI for now.
I have parts that would continue with the 'early' or 'late' theme but would need to replace this starter assembly if I went 'late' and chased the engine number. The M38 SN is MC52408 on dash & seat plate, with paint and crud that suggests the numbers are original. (2/52 with a 55 over strike)

I think this is a 'late' vehicle SN. If so I could chase the 'late' resto.

[wesk]

and maybe the score sheet at a MVPA event is the only way to know.

Go to the MVPA on line web site and get their Rules and class data.

Auto-Lite 24V Starter Assembly (early)
MBP-4301UT Used on engines through SN 74419.
As identified from ORD 9 SNL / Parts and various album pics.

My engine is marked MC83869 which in a more perfect world would have the 'late' MCZ4001UT or maybe DR-X10483 starter.

But if the MBP-4301UT starter will take me on the 'motor pool resto path' then that's fine with me.
Opinions and comments welcome.

If your engine photos you posted earlier are showing the bell housing you intend to continue in service then you have no choice but to use the small frame starter since it is the only one that will fit that early bell housing.



This hodge podge collection of engine, rear adapter plate, flywheel and bellhousing requires a certain degree of matching earl vs late parts. From the photo I can ascertain you have a late engine, late rear bell adapter plate, early starter and early bell housing. The only thing I cannot ascertain is which early or late flywheel you have. The flywheel in these case must match the type bell housing. The early flywheel has 124 teeth and the late flywheel has 129 teeth. With that bell and starter you must use the 124 tooth flywheel. My photo albums show you how to determine which flywheel you have in an easier way then trying to count the teeth.

SN is MC52408 on dash & seat plate, with paint and crud that suggests the numbers are original. (2/52 with a 55 over strike)

I think this is a 'late' vehicle SN. If so I could chase the 'late' resto.

MC52408 is a Feb 52 unit. It is early. The ENGINE SERIAL MC74419 occurs at CHASSIS SERIAL MC53262. Your jeep's chassis (Dash) serial is 854 units before the switch. I could confuse this even more by mentioning this late engine/Bellhousing setup actually had a production test run in Dec 1951. I'll post that short block of serial numbers tonight.

[Naugha]

MC52408 is a Feb 52 unit. It is early. The ENGINE SERIAL MC74419 occurs at CHASSIS SERIAL MC53262. Your jeep's chassis (Dash) serial is 854 units before the switch. I could confuse this even more by mentioning this late engine/Bellhousing setup actually had a production test run in Dec 1951. I'll post that short block of serial numbers tonight.

So.... early chassis / late engine / early starter (right so far?)

I have all three flywheels shown in your album comparison pic. and both early & late bellhousings & BH covers as I will show in the next few posts but I don’t want to make any big mistakes .... which I am pretty good at doing.

[Naugha]

My Generator Assembly:

Auto-Lite 24V
8673350 ORD 9 SNL
GHA4802BUT

The manual does not mention any changes in this part.
I think this means it was used in both early & late M38s.
Should be appropriate for my engine & starter.

[Naugha]

I have all three flywheels shown in the album pic titled:
'Flywheel Starter Ring Gear Comparison'

The 124 tooth flywheel in the middle pic is identified as 'early' in the album so it should be appropriate for my early MBP4301UT starter.

But my head spins when I look at ORD 9/ subgroup 0103 / Flywheel/
P. 29 & 30 ......... the ID numbers don't seem to match the two M38 flywheels in the album comparison pic.
(802925/ 129 tooth & 641955/124 tooth)

Now I know my eyes are bad and all I know is what I read in the funny papers, so will someone just tell me if the 124 tooth flywheel is right for my MBP4301UT starter.

I am not always great with the manual but I can count teeth..... and I do have all three wheels 129/124/97.


129 tooth/ late


124 tooth/ early


97 tooth / MB/CJ2A

[wesk]

The smaller tooth count the smaller the width of the ring gear. Your photos are all labeled correctly. Try to study the structure of the pages in an ORD 9. It usually will illustrate very subtly what is a complete assembly and what is part of an assembly by the indentations in the list. Or a basic part with a singular noun then at "w/something" assembly or basic noun with assembly added.



As for the basic bare bellhousing WO# 804306 becomes Housing , flywheel WO# 804812, ORD# 8328312 used on serial 74420 & up. Not that the basic unit does not always preceed the assembly unit in the ORD 9's.

[Naugha]

I have early & late bell housings / plates and will bring them into the puzzle next.

Doing my homework on each major engine part I have ... then double checking with the top guns because if I make a poor decision here it’s going to hurt $$ .

I may end up with an early M38 body/frame ... with mostly early major M38 parts except the engine .... which is a late MC.

[Naugha]

as long as the parts were compatible

This phrase does not fit in with a scored restoration system. Compatible parts are used where folks do not care about points lost in a scored resto. Original NOS or Takeoff parts are used where folks are worried about a scored restoration loosing points.

On a 'motor pool resto' does the use of M38 original/ NOS/ Take Off parts that are compatible but not from the same early/late period reduce (greatly reduce??) the category status/scoring of the vehicle?

[Naugha]

Here are my two bell housings.
We can talk about the plates later.
I will add more info later.

For now, here are the pics.
I am trying to match the parts shown in this thread.

[wesk]

On a 'motor pool resto' does the use of M38 original/ NOS/ Take Off parts that are compatible but not from the same early/late period reduce (greatly reduce??) the category status/scoring of the vehicle?

The scoring authority/agency is the MVPA. As I already mentioned above: Go to their site and download their inspection guide and rules. The answers are there just waiting for you to tap the buttons.

[wesk]

For now, here are the pics.
I am trying to match the parts shown in this thread.

Left side early and right side late for all three parts.

[RonD2]

If you go with the early, you might want to see MWO ORD G740-W4 to fabricate a cover for that rectangular hole in the engine plate, to keep crud out of your early bell-housing.

This is from PS Magazine #15:

[Naugha]

Thanks for the heads up.

I also found a thread where Wes answers all these questions and ends with another mod that may be needed.

“The most important thought to keep in your head is what parts must stay together?

1-Bell Housing
2-Adapter plate
3-Starter
4-Flywheel

If you are using an early bell then you must use the early versions of items 2, 3, & 4! If you are using a late bell then you must use the late versions of items 2, 3, & 4!

If you make sure you keep the items 1 thru 4 as a set there are really only two fit or interference problems you must deal with when you deviate from using the correct engine in front of the correct bell.

The issues occur when you use the early bell parts with a late block.

1-The extra meat on the reinforced flange of the late block partially covers the timing mark hole used in the early adapter plate. You can gently grind this meat away from the timing mark port or you can ignore the issue and move the engine timing mark to the front pulley if it isn't already there on the late engine you are using.
2-If you try to using the late engine's larger 129 tooth flywheel with your early bell you will sometimes find the flywheel scrapes the inside of the bell. But since your early starter is suppose to be used with the early 124 tooth flywheel which you should have kept off your old engine you really do not have a problem.
_________________
Wes K ”


I will go silent on this part of the resto and wait until the engine is finished and all these parts are installed.

Thanks for the help.

[RonD2]

After much research, I purposely switched mine from an early to late setup with a 129 tooth flywheel, mainly to avoid all those issues, but also because parts availability and cost appear to be somewhat better for the late stuff.