willysmjeeps.com

See my post above this one.

And Rick, no offense intended, but not knowing your electrical experience, it bears mentioning that 550-650 amps is more than enough juice to weld things (like your wedding ring). And tons more than enough to do really bad things --- like kill you.

Safety First!

Salem SC ? We're practically neighbors!

Hey Rick,
One more thing I noticed looking at the photo of the battery in your engine bay.

Your battery terminal clamps, especially the one on the right of the photo with the negative meter lead on the ground clamp. That clamp appears to be fully closed and crushed by the clamping bolt. Sometimes, not always, it means the clamp isn't as tight around the post as it should be, and could inhibit a good connection. Typically there's a space of 1/4-inch or so in the open side of the clamp --- after it's tight. Can you move (spin) that clamp on the post by hand? If yes, that needs correcting. It also looks like it's not down fully on the post --- post and clamp are typically flush across the top.

The other clamp on the positive side looks almost the same way. You might check and consider a smaller clamp, or take a file or grinder to the inside of the open end of the clamp (lead hazard) to widen them up a bit to get a better connection. Just my 2 cents.

Check the fluid level in the batteries. Battery tenders will boil the water out of the battery...should check it every couple months.

At 8 years old it's time for a new pair of batteries...

Mike B

Hi Mike,
His photos show sealed non-serviceable batteries. Can't tell if they're AGM type or not, but they are old. I never had a tender "trickle charger" boil a battery. Regular old school battery chargers --- yes --- in an instant, especially in hot-dry climate, and especially with old school military style batteries like the 2HN with the cell caps on top and filling them with distilled water all the time. But not a trickle charger.

I believe that the modern tender I have works its magic by de-gassing the battery and trickle charging it over many cycles. I'm not a chemist, so don't ask me how. I Googled it.

What do you recommend next, Wes? I will order new batteries, what do you recommend that will fit my battery trays and have proper cranking amps? I think I will also pull the starter again and look at the kick switch. Thoughts?

You can do as previously suggested and have the batteries load checked at any battery store. But two 8 year old batteries of different sizes and capacities already has you a mile short of the goal.

Ohm meter readings are not what I suspected for a good switch. What ohm settings did you have your meter selector switch on? With the kick pedal fully pressed the ohm meter should show 0 resistance.

Did you ever check voltage reading on output side of the kick switch with the switch pedal fully depressed?

Before you pull the starter check volts at output side of switch with switch full depressed. It should match or be no less then 0.1 volt lower.

If it becomes obvious there is no voltage being moved along by the switch and the batteries pass a load test then I would consider opening the kick switch and inspect the contacts.

You didn't answer me the last time I asked this question. Is that kick switch the switch that was on your original starter or is it the switch that came to you already mounted on the new starter?

I have a photo album with over 1,000 detailed technical photos. You should visit and peruse it. Truly most of the questions asked on our web site has an answer already lying in my photo album. The link is at the bottom of all my posts.

Your M38 uses the 2HN battery. Compare dimensions and operating characteristics listed in the following photos from my "M Electrics" album:









On another note: let's consider what we should call these mini-chargers.

First we have the old style TRICKLE CHARGER These are normally unregulated and if left on long enough they can dump some battery fluid.

Second we have the modern BATTERY MAINTAINERS These units are self regulating and rarely overcharge or damage a battery.

Third we have the Battery Tender and this guy has been around a bit. He overlapped the Trickle Chargers and the Battery Maintainers and when using this term today can confuse the issue a bit. So it's best not to describe either style charger by this name.

Next up is the importance of using a closely matched pair of batteries. When battery capacity differs then the less superior battery will always draw the more superior battery down to it's level. This becomes an electrical see/saw with the batteries chasing each other during periods of non-use and actually running down both batteries. This is why the rule of thumb in dual battery installations when maintaining or replacing them is to keep them closely matched. You do this by treating each battery the same. When you purchase a battery you always buy two from the same date lot and buy matching sizes.

How do we always treat these batteries equally? Well the most common treatment area is charging/maintaining and fluid service. Keep the cells at an equal level at all times in all cells of both batteries. When you charge these batteries it is best to leave them attached and charge with a 24 volt charger that has automatic features such as tapered charge and auto shut-off. Same if you choose to use a maintainer. Use a 24V maintainer and leave the batteries together (Paired Up). If you can't do 24 volt charging for some reason then always disconnect the batteries completely from the jeep and each other and use identical 12V chargers or charge one first and then the other.

Following, At 25 volts and nothing in line but the starter, the starter should at least spin, IMO did the starter spin before installation.

As for batteries, I use 51R Duracell available at Sam's for about $100 each. They fit a little loose in the holders but hold up well.

Following thread..

Thanks for all the inputs from everyone, with the flurry of RFI's I've neglected to answer a few of them.  I'll backtrack and hit some of them, thanks for your patience:

Wes:
- Battery life.  Yep, they batteries will be replaced regardless...it is time.  I am now researching proper replacements, either a 2NH or maybe a 51R or other suggestions I am seeing in other forums.  But I'll get the existing batteries completely checked out as part of my fact gathering.

- Voltage reading on output post with kick switch engaged.  Yes I did that, neglected to report that.  It came up zero.  

- Resistance measurements.  I am admittedly a novice when it comes to electrical measurements.  My voltmeter was set to "2000" in the Ohm section.  However, I am reviewing my procedures and will recheck tonight, I may have had it setup wrong. When the kick switch was not engaged, the reading was a 1. 

- Kick switch.  You asked if the kick switch was my previous one or a new one....it was a new kick switch that came with the new starter.  What is interesting as I stared at it last night.  When my son pushed on the kick switch to engage, initially we always got no resistance measurements.  Then I asked him to really push hard on it....that is when we finally got the ohm measurements.  It appears that the pinion gear engages and then it takes considerably more push to close the connection (if it is closing fully at all).  I will pull that thing out and open it up and take measurements/pictures to see what is going on. How adjustable is this switch?

Your Photo Album on All Things Electrical  Those albums you have are awesome.  I took a quick peek and will continue to look....I am approaching info overload and am trying to focus on what I am able at the moment.  Definitely on my homework list!  

Ron:
- Wedding ring and electricity.  Good points with those, what you don't see in the picture is a rubber glove in the palm of my hand.  Ring should come off, great point out, plus I let the tiny spark I noticed prior to lull me into complacency.

- Battery clamps.  Those clamps are indeed very tight on the terminals.  They can go even further down if I wedge them down...they were up a bit because I was taking them on and off so much.  But, they are definitely all cleaned and have a nice tight fit.  

Hal:
- I did not bench test the starter prior to installation, I am trusting the rebuilders when they state it was tested and worked fine (KW has a great reputation).  From that, I am troubleshooting other possible causes prior to claiming a bad starter....but I will look at the kick switch...
- Nice to converse with a fellow Air Force Vet!

NEXT STEPS FOR ME:
- Testing my current batteries (for data)
- Inspecting the kick switch
- Ordering new batteries.  Does anyone have recommendations for a place to get these?  The 2HN's sure look expensive....

Rick, as stated in my previous post Sam's carries 51R in stock; at least here in Oklahoma City where I shop. They are right at $100 per battery, use your old ones for core exchange...

That is if you are a member of Sam's

Thanks for straightening out the battery charger terminology Wes. Along with the battery care primer.

I'm using a maintainer, a BatteryMinder 1510. One of the best gadgets I ever bought: https://www.batteryminders.com/1510-12- ... h-warranty

Troubleshooting, charging and etc you can't beat having a nice "Battery Disconnect Switch". They should be installed at the ground for the dual batteries. In the M38 that is the negative terminal on the underhood battery.





Or you can install a stand alone Master Switch wired to a Master Relay (Solenoid) similar to most aircraft wiring systems. Of course make sure you buy a 24V continuous duty relay (solenoid) of good quality and proper amp rating.

Here's an excellent Primer on aviation master relay set-ups.

https://www.kitplanes.com/aircraft-wiring-4/

- Nice to converse with a fellow Air Force Vet!

You would be surprised how many ex or retired USAF folks are on this web site!

I spent 20 USAF heavy jets (mostly B-52) and 2 years Army reserves (UH-1 and Kiowa's) Retired from USAF 1989 and been working my own aircraft repair business since 1996.

I am getting quite the primer on Jeep electricals....which is what I sorely needed. Wes, I perused your albums and will continue to deep-dive...great info there. I wish I looked there prior to my rebuild....

I am also a 20 year USAF vet, flew on the E-3 AWACS, and now I teach JROTC. The cadets get a kick out of the M-38 in our parades...it is a reward for the top kids to get to ride in it and crank the siren! I also have it painted with USAF markings....I have it as a TACP jeep (minus the radio).

This weekend I visit Sam's Club for batteries (gonna try the 51R) and the maker of the starter kick switch (who happened to be following this post) has volunteered to replace it right away...in the mail as we speak! What a straight-up guy!

Alright you old Air Force salts. Not to interrupt the reunion, but now hear this: playing right now on Turner Classic Movie (TCM) channel.....from 1957..... Bombers B-52. Atten-hut!

Excellent movie! The only one I ever recall seeing that has USAF support and is dedicated to Crew Chiefs and Ground Maintenance Crews.

Jeeps, fire trucks, flight line scooters, convertibles, girls, beer without pop-tops, and oh yeah.....Saberjets, whirlybirds, and bombers! What's more to want in a movie?

These battery’s in the business are known as never start you need to know what the amperage is that they are still capable of compared to what they are rated. I don’t think I have ever seen a ten year old battery that was worth saving. That from a GM tech since 1976.Replace the battery’s,if it’s not your problem today it will be soon.

Thread Closeout.

Gentlemen, we have a solution to the starter issue. In the interests of posterity and for someone to use this post as a good reference, I want to provide closure to the issue. It appears the final problem/issue was indeed the batteries.

I troubleshot the ignition kick switch and I appeared to get the correct resistance across the terminals, I ruled that out. Then I went to Sam's and bought two 51R Duracell Batteries. Took the ignition switch off and made a few adjustments to ensure switch electrical connectivity when the foot switch is depressed, connected the new batteries, and it now turns over. Yay.

Now....I have some questions on my first startup....but, I will save that for a separate, new post. Thanks to ALL the bros that offered their troubleshooting suggestions....they are MUCH appreciated!!!

MoxM38 Out!