Subject: Re: M38 Data Base
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:16:37 -0700
From: Jacques Dorion <
jacdor@telusplanet.net>
To: Wes Knettle <
wsknettl@centurytel.net>
References:
1
Hi Wes
Here is the story and it is a simple one.
1) The M38 CDN was not designed, created or built by Ford Canada, it
is not a GPW in comparaison to a MB. It is a Willys Overland Jeep
assembled, put together by Ford Canada.
The story is that at the time the canadian goverment wanted jeeps
now and since Willys could barely keep up with the demand at the time
Willys or the Canadian Goverment asked Ford to do it for them. So all
the parts (Willys, Autolite, kelsey (wheels) etc )were sent up to Canada
to be assembled here (Ford, Windsor, Ontario)
That lasted for 10 months, Feb 1952 to Nov 1952 and 2135 of them were
assembled here. Once they were out the doors there was no differences in
between US and CDN M38 excepted for the data plates.
As far as I know there no differences between serial # F-100001 and
F-102135. They are all the same and also they are the late
US serial # model. References for this will be found in ORD 9 SNL G-740
My jeep has an early CDN serial # and incorpores the latest improvement
made to the US M38 at the time (1952)
Exemple: the starter is a AL MCZ-4001 UT which comes after US serial
#74419 (This is Engine serial MC74419). So when I look for parts I always look for the late serial#
parts in ORD 9.
As for a very clear and concise list of differences between the two
well it will be short
1) Data plates. None on the right rear fender (but the 4 holes are
there) A copy of them is included with this e-mail, taken from
CDN-OM9-804. You can compare the diff between the two sets ex:
measurements are imperial. You will notice also that one of the data
plates referes to SNL G-740 for parts list and TM 9-804, 1804A, 1804B for
maintenance
2) Convoy lamp (Field modification added later) I will try to come up
with pics of the location of the switch and lamp
3) Fire extinguisher installed on the left fender.
4) Might have had tires marked Good Year Canada on them
mine had 4 Good Year Canada , 2 dated 1958 and 2 dated 1960
That's it
Jacques Dorion
Some Canadian M38 Production Facts (<
http://www.m38a1.ca/m38.html>)
Ford of Canada assembled 2,135 M38-CDN. The following facts come from an
article by Robert Grieve published in the OMVA CMP Magazine Issue No.
13, May 1996.
Some items to note about Canadian M38 production:
1. All Canadian M38's were assembled by Ford Motor Company of Canada
in Windsor, Ontario, from February to November 1952.
2. The average cost per M38 was $2600 (the first contract of 840
vehicles cost $2807 per vehicle).
3. All vehicles where shipped from Windsor to Hagersville, Ontario
to be inspected and put into military service.
4. The last vehicle produced by Ford was serial number F102135 and
it was delivered on 27 November 1952 (as researched at Ford by Peter
Simundson).
5. Winches where installed and delivered on a separate purchase
order program by Ramsey Winch Co.
6. All M38's were equipped with a convoy lamp installed as a field
modification that was done upon receipt by RCEME [Royal Canadian
Electrical and Mechanical Engineers].
7. Vehicles shipped by rail transport had eight tie downs installed
on the frame. Vehicles shipped overseas to Norway or Cyprus had eight
tie downs on the frame and also has hold down rigns installed to the
four spring shackle plates.
954
G-Staff Sergeant
Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 50
Location: Burnaby, BC, CANADA
Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:10 am Post subject: M38 CDN numbers
SOAP BOX
1. I hate "forum sign in" routines. Bloody annoying!
2. My draft long message got dumped when I went back to check on some facts in postings in this string.
OK, now to the facts.
I have several thousand military jeeps in my data base. I have owned two M38 CDN jeeps over the years (as well as MBs, GPW, GPA and M38A1CDN, M100, M100 CDN etc.) :
52-31313 is Canadian Army Registration (CAR) number. All Canadian Army 1/4 tons bought in the 1950s were in put in the 30,000 range. First two digits are year of issue. M38 CDN were made in 1952 by Ford in Canada. This CAR is NOT the VIN number! The CAR number was painted on both sides of the body in white - usually under door wells, but sometimes on sides of hood. Occasionally a spare wheel would have the last three digits of the CAR painted on them to discourage theft (e.g. by switching wheels.) CAR numbers only ROUGHLY correspond to vehicles' serial numbers - my data base shows there is no exact correlation. Looks like vehicles were parked in a field and then CAR assigned. CAR also stamped into top of left frame rail between grill and front bumper. The dash "-"is a "1" either horizontal or sloped "/".
The date for yours would be in late June or early July 1952. Dates were stamped e.g. 7-12-52 (July 12 1952).
Here are some that are close to yours.
F101187 52-3???? 6-26-52 Contract No. E-20 LV7 742 ARMY. Ordnance Code: 2230 FORD MOTOR CO. OF CANADA TRUCK UTILITY 1/4 TON 4X4 M38 CDN WO/WN (i.e. withoutr winch, W/WN would be with winch)Only data plate set survives. Colin Stevens' collection.
F101247 52-3???? 6-31-52
F1????? 52-31313 ??????? YOURS. I estimate date to be about July 10-12 1952.
F101294 52-3???? 7-10-52 Only data plate survives (in Ontario?)
F101343 52-31359 7-12-52 Contact: E20 LV7 742 ARMY Owner George Arsoniadis of British Columbia, Canada.
By the way in the incorrect SN you have in your signature block, you have an extra zero.
_________________
Colin Macgregor Stevens, MVPA #954
Burnaby, British Columbia, CANADA
cmstevens@telus.net
http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net
http://www.westerncommand.com
Owner of: 1944 MB; 1942 GPA; 1942 BSA airborne bicycles
Hello Wes
please feel free to share my email with the group.
I think he was referring to the first contract of M38A1 jeeps built for the Canadian forces. This would have been for 700 or so M38A1 CDN jeeps that were produced at Ford in 1953. The M38CDN contract was concluded in 1952 so I do not think they were produced together. I think the term "turned over" referred to all the production data for the M38 in 52 and the data for the M38A1's was turned over in 53 to the Department of National Defence. Hmm . I wonder if it still exists in some archive in Ottawa.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From:
tomatotruck993@yahoo.com
To: Steve and Jennifer Johnson
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: RCAF M38A1
Steve,
Very interesting. Glad you sorted this out for us. Can I add your email to my CDN notes and post it on the Yahoo Group? What did Sandy refer to when he said' "---- M38 & M38A Jeeps be turned over"? Could he have meant M38A1's were produced by Ford Canada in 1952 & 53 along with the M38? Be interesting to find out. I look forward to some quality closeup digitals from the new A1. Would like to get a comparison document started on differences between roughly the same year group US M38A1 vs Canadian M38A1. Our Air Force did the same thing with trucks used on the flightline being painted high vis yellow. In the 60's the USAF transitioned to the carc green for all equipment and vehicles deployed or subject to deployment to SEA.
Wes K
Steve and Jennifer Johnson <
jssjohnson@shaw.ca> wrote:
Hello Wes
Here are some Photos of that 1953 M38A1 RCAF jeep I recovered this summer. There are some shots of the transport home and getting it parked for winter storage. You will notice the cut-out back panel. I have learned that this was a Canadian Airforce mod and a quick remove panel was put there to allow for easy access to the back for ropes and jacks etc. as the truck was used as a crash tender. The yellow colour is apparently correct RCAF also for some later period. From what I understand at some point they painted the CDN airforce trucks (High Visibility Yellow) Though I much prefer the original blue.
On another note. You know that discussion we were having online with regard to the script on the front of the M38 Toolbox and that it seems like the CDN ones do not have it.
I contacted the Heritage division of Ford of Canada and here is how they responded. Let me know what you think.
Hi Steve:
Part of the agreement with Willy's was that after production ceased, all records relating to the production (1952 & 1953) of the M-38 & M-38A Jeeps be turned over to the Canadian Military as classified material. What happened to the records after that is anyone's guess, as I have tried through the DND to access any records. We have only the serial number sequences for the units. Under license indicates that Ford was authorised to produce the vehicles here under the Willy's name (but with Ford of Canada on the data plate). As far as I know all the parts were produced here, not imported from Willy's, which was busy producing jeeps for the US Army at the time (the Korean War was taking place at the time). Of course, Willys provided all the design specifications for the jeeps.
Sandy Notarianni
Historical Consultant, Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited
CHQ 624A
(905) 845-2511 Ext. 1562 FAX: (905) 844-1198
snotaria@ford.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve and Jennifer Johnson [mailto:
jssjohnson@shaw.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 12:28 AM
To: Notarianni, Sandy (S.M.)
Subject: 1952 Canadian M38 Jeeps built by Ford of Canada
Hello Sandy
I am restoring a 1952 M38CDN 1/4 ton truck (Jeep). On your heritage site is the following info.
Even after the war, Ford of Canada filled a large order of military Jeeps. Production took place in late 1951 through 1955. Built under license from Willys, they were known as M-38 Ford trucks. During 1952, a total of 2438 were made.
What does built under license mean?
Were the 1952CDN Jeeps just assembled from parts sent from Willys or did Ford of Canada fabricate the Jeeps or any of their parts to Willys Specifications under the license agreement.
Best Regards
Steve Johnson
it all new to me 
