original bonnet numbers

[BigLew]

Hi. I am trying to find a method of tracking down any details of and the original bonnet markings for 2 Jeeps my father and I purchased from Greece. They are ex-US military (we believe). The first is a M38 manufactured 01/53, chassis no 64873. The second is a M38A1 (we do not have a date of man) but chassis no is 68930. I would be very grateful for any suggestions anybody has about where to find information on these veh. We would like to complete their restoration in their original markings. Many thanks.

[wesk]

In the case of the post WWII military jeeps from Willys/Kaiser we have no known copies of the original contracts for their production. When a contract was issue for a group of jeeps to be produced the military would issue a quantity of consecutive registration numbers assumed to be equal to the quantity of jeeps in that order that were to be used by Willys on the jeeps as they left the factory production line. There were six separate M38 contracts and at least 4 M38A1 contracts the first of which was just a continuation of the last M38 contract. These contracts were issued separately and each batch of registration numbers would start where the Army left off last which may have been with a different companies vehicle production.

The Armed forces did not maintain any wheeled vehicle assignment records after each vehicle was declared surplus and left the service.

The best we can do right now is make a reasonably close (within 1000 to 2000 numbers) guess based on the known original hood registration numbers currently in our data bases. We rely on the folks out there who own these jeeps for these databases. We send every known owner a survey form and we get back maybe 1 in each 10.

OK now on with your two vehicles.

M38 manufactured 01/53, chassis no 64873

The contract number on the dash serial plate's lower left corner should read DA-33-019-ORD-494 and should have had a DOD of 4/1952
and this is in obvious disagreement with your information.

However if I go with what our database and about 10 M38's with serial numbers just above and below yours then a 2095XXXX hood registration number would be appropriate.

M38A1 (we do not have a date of man) but chassis no is 68930

This would have been a 12/1953 unit and had contract # DA-33-019-ORD-630 and an estimated hood registration number would be 2099XXXX range.

This issue becomes even more a problem when folks guess a number and paint it on their hoods then several years later a subsequent owner turns that hood number in on a survey to us and now it will skewer the works all up.

At this time the accepted proper way to create and use a fabricated hood number is to use a number that is easily recognized by future researchers as a fabricated number. For example use part or all of the jeep's serial number in the hood number. A good example of this would be for your A1 use a fabricated hood number of 20998930. Now we have a hood number in the correct range with an obvious last four digits of that A1's serial number.

[BigLew]

Wesk
Huge thanks for your detailed reply. I have just passed the details to my father who is over the moon. We will obviously take your recommendation for the hood numbers. Many thanks again for your time and assistance. It is genuinely appreciated. Lew

[Jack]

Wes,

Following your time line, do you think my M38 MFR. SER. NO. MC12757 would have a 236XXXX or 237XXXX hood number?

Jack

[whydahdvr]

Wes,
Same question as Jack although I believe that the serial number I have is from a 1953 CJ although my data plate is stamped 1/53. In order to have a hood number, just manufacture one using your above criteria and the last few digits of the listed serial number?
By the way, for everyone out there, Kuwait is rather warm this time of year. 120 at 4 PM (1600)!
-Josh

[wesk]

Jack,
Yours is still a -4758 contract and I would estimate yours at 2368XXX. By the way I have no 237XXXX numbers yet. The next contract -9196 goes immediately into 238XXXX numbers.

[wesk]

Hello Josh,
I don't have anything in my files on your jeep. What model do you have and what serials and where are they located on the jeep?

[madmike]

Since it has not been mentioned, BigLew might be able to find the original numbers under the paint, if the two vehicles have not been stripped and painted before. That is how I found my M38A1 number. The military did a scuff and paint in OD Green before it parted service and remained that way until I got it. Same numbers and service ID were on the bumperettes as well but more difficult to read.

[Jack]

Thanks Wes. I have two M38's right now (one will soon be up for sale) and I'd would probably use the 2368XXX you identified on the one I've been slowly restoring for more than two years (MC12757). But since I did 20 years in the Navy, I'm finishing it in Navy grey. Now that I know the hood number could have been around 2368XXX I'd like to run down a close Navy hood number. The nearest I've found so far is Navy #171165 for a 05/51 M38.

I was thinking of doing as you suggested and using the number 17 and adding my last four serial numbers 2757 for a "Navy number" of 172757.

Jack

[wesk]

Hello Jack,
I do have a USN M38 MC15725 with a USN Reg # 410363 in my data base.
It belongs to Dave Ullrich. I gave him your email address to contact you.

[whydahdvr]

Wes,
The M38 I have is a 1952 model. I ran the pictures and info by David Uhrig as well. The serial number reads 228085 with a delivery date stamp of 1/53. Dave and I batted this around but thought it might be a CJ serial number used when the vehicle came out of military service.

[BigLew]

Following on from my initial question, the man plate on the rear right wheel arch of the both Jeeps is totally blank. Should there by a man ser number stamped on this plate too? Reference stripping the paint off, I am afraid that the original paint had already been stripped by the Greek Army when we got them. Thanks again for any suggestions.

[wesk]

Lew,
The patent plate serial is very lightly engraved in the plate. Any prior rough abrasive treatment could easily have wiped it completely out. The correct method to remove the over paint is with brake fluid. It lifts the paint right off then you can gently clean the tag with solvent and a tooth brush. Then inspect it with a magnifying glass.


Here's an example of how rough they can get.

[wesk]

Josh,
Are you absolutely certain you have an M38? Send me some photos of the data plates, the frame at the front bumper, the frame at the brake/clutch pedal support and the frame at the voltage regulator tray mount.

[whydahdvr]

Wes,
I'm as certain as I can be with my limited knowledge and from the resources I used. Unfortunately I'm deployed to Iraq right now but I have some photos on my photo album. I did run all the pictures by David Uhrig before I bought the jeep. I may have an old repro tub and believe that the engine serial number was decked. Anyway, will look at it when I get back. What Dave Uhrig told me is that often people used CJ serial numbers in place of the military one. But, will explore when I get home in 10 months. Thanks!
-Josh