willysmjeeps.com

Posted: **Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:32 pm**

hi everyone
i feel sure this has been asked, but i dont know
when was the last m38 built month and year
thanks
bob

Posted: **Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:04 pm**

Based on Willys production figures MC72329 would have been the last out the door in July 1952.

You'll hear someone talk about a rumor of a second batch to Greece or Turkey around 55 but no one has ever produce any evidence they ever existed.

Posted: **Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:40 pm**

thank you sir

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:53 am**

Unless you count the Canadian ones.

They went till February 53 for delivery at anyways.

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:56 am**

Actually the M38CDN production only ran 10 months Feb 52 thru Nov 52 for 2135 units at Ford Canada. The M38A1CDN was produce .

Here's a good Canadian source for that info:

Hi Wes
Here is the story and it is a simple one.
1) The M38 CDN was not designed, created or built by Ford Canada, it
is not a GPW in comparaison to a MB. It is a Willys Overland Jeep
assembled, put together by Ford Canada.
The story is that at the time the canadian goverment wanted jeeps
now and since Willys could barely keep up with the demand at the time
Willys or the Canadian Goverment asked Ford to do it for them. So all
the parts (Willys, Autolite, kelsey (wheels) etc )were sent up to Canada
to be assembled here (Ford, Windsor, Ontario)
That lasted for 10 months, Feb 1952 to Nov 1952 and 2135 of them were
assembled here. Once they were out the doors there was no differences in
between US and CDN M38 excepted for the data plates.
As far as I know there no differences between serial # F-100001 and
F-102135. They are all the same and also they are the late
US serial # model. References for this will be found in ORD 9 SNL G-740
My jeep has an early CDN serial # and incorpores the latest improvement
made to the US M38 at the time (1952)
Exemple: the starter is a AL MCZ-4001 UT which comes after US serial
#74419. So when I look for parts I always look for the late serial#
parts in ORD 9.
As for a very clear and concise list of differences between the two
well it will be short
1) Data plates. None on the right rear fender (but the 4 holes are
there) A copy of them is included with this e-mail, taken from
CDN-OM9-804. You can compare the diff between the two sets ex:
measurements are imperial. You will notice also that one of the data
plates referes to SNL G-740 for parts list and TM 9-804, 804A, 804B for
maintenance
2) Convoy lamp (Field modification added later) I will try to come up
with pics of the location of the switch and lamp
3) Fire extinguisher installed on the left fender.
4) Might have had tires marked Good Year Canada on them
mine had 4 Good Year Canada , 2 dated 1958 and 2 dated 1960

That's it
Jacques Dorion

Some Canadian M38 Production Facts (<http://www.m38a1.ca/m38.html>)

Ford of Canada assembled 2,135 M38-CDN. The following facts come from an
article by Robert Grieve published in the OMVA CMP Magazine Issue No.
13, May 1996.

Some items to note about Canadian M38 production:

1. All Canadian M38's were assembled by Ford Motor Company of Canada
in Windsor, Ontario, from February to November 1952.
2. The average cost per M38 was $2600 (the first contract of 840
vehicles cost $2807 per vehicle).
3. All vehicles where shipped from Windsor to Hagersville, Ontario
to be inspected and put into military service.
4.

The Canadian Ford built M38A1 was produced during 52 and 53.

Posted: **Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:58 am**

true but we have seen original data plates for a M38 CDN with a delivery date of feb 53.

Posted: **Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:10 am**

Post a photo of the 1953 M38CDN data plate!

Posted: **Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:20 pm**

Wes, thank you for always pressing for factual data to back-up statements of claim. In the case of M38 CDN production, the stories that people present are often just repeats of old and undocumented research or conclusions based on having observed only a few examples.
For example in the quote from Dorion I would question some of his statements: most wheels that I have seen on M38 CDN's were made in Canada and lack the small production hole on the flange ( so not just a part shipped from Willys in the US). I don't think I have ever seen the 4 holes for a plate plate on a M38 CDN wheel well. As far as having "all the latest features" what about the 3 firewall circuit breakers that are on all Canadian M38's that I have seen.
I have yet to see a single "researcher" comment on the fact that M38CDN's have 2 different contract numbers - easily seen by anyone comparing an early data plate from a later data plate. How basic can it get?
My very first M38 CDN had an early non- waterproofed bell housing and starter and this early set-up is listed in the Canadian parts book as a replacement engine assembly. That observation doesn't prove it came off the
Windsor assembly line that way some possibly came that way but tempting to think so.
Lots yet to learn, lots of old " facts" to question or correct. .... Brian
There will always be lots to learn and we have to be careful what facts get "written in stone" and endlessly repeated.

Posted: **Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:16 pm**

Hello all,

Very good discussion here. I am not trying to stir up a hornet's nest, but I think the issue of the M38CDN with the reported late date of production came from an earlier discussion in here by a member.
http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php? ... =jeeplivin

In the discussion, there is reference to a jeep with a late serial number:

Peter Simundson didn't have knowledge of the F-102127 M38 Cdn here that has a delivery date of Feb 1953 when doing his studies ,I'm thinking.... There are some data tag pics [3] in the vintage photos section with jeeplivin in the heading.....
This jeep was rescued by me -and tilt'n'loaded ,from the Petawawa Military base a while back after I'd seen these data tags on it....
Was it held back for some reason ? Did it get sidelined temporarily for some reason awaiting parts,etc? On a specific contract [ E-20-LV7 742-ARMY ] yet it came a bit late..... which definately contradicts the date of the last known m38 Cdn known delivery date,as per Peters study with the available information at the time..

Its paperwork through our govt also lists it as a '53 Ford .....Excellent steel solid rust free example .....also not for sale....

I do not know of photos, so as Wes pointed out and what Bryan said well, have to be careful of what we take as fact. I am curious about the two different contract numbers (639 and 742) and the backgrounds to them. Moreso of the history and also where the break in serials were. thanks.

Posted: **Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:21 pm**

Actually, there was a photo of the data plate in the photo gallery:

[/img]

Posted: **Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:25 pm**

The US jeeps run the same type issues. One odd ball plate or configuration and that particular owner swears it is correct from factory and of course with no supporting evidence and then it gets repeated over and over and suddenly 30 members swear it is gospel. The simple test is "Show me the car fax"!

The obvious question in the above case is: "Why would Ford of Canada build a single M38CDN during the M38A1 production run which was already a few months into it's production?" Now I could see where Ford of Canada would want to unload a factory prototype/pilot jeep/test bed on the Canadian army after M38A1 CDN production began and would just plant a 53 serial plate on it.

The plate was posted after I started this reply. I would guess that plate was simply a mis-stamping of the year (3 instead of 2).

I have many numbers from Gaetan Gagnon which include this info as well:

We know that Willys could not keep up
with it's US order and supply Canada.
So it's possible that Ford set up it's
assembly line by assembling 50 (at least
35 and less than 79) M-38 in 1951 from
parts supplied by Willys.
The full production run could start in
february 1952 when suppliers were
ready to deliver parts directly to Ford
Windsor plant.
Robert Grieve, often cited, may
have incomplete information?
Robert Grieve published in the OMVA CMP
Magazine Issue No. 13, May 1996: The
last vehicle produced by Ford was serial
number F102135 and it was delivered on
27 November 1952 (as researched at
Ford by Peter Simundson).

Posted: **Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:55 am**

I am not sure, that is a very high serial to have been at the beginning of production. Now it could just be a total anomaly, one held for some reason at the factory for whatever reason. Sadly with all the records destroyed we will never know why this one jeep, I have heard of at least one other but not seen the plates, is dated that way.

Posted: **Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:49 am**

I am not sure, that is a very high serial to have been at the beginning of production.

Note the production I referred to was the M38A1 CDN production and not M38 CDN production. I am inferring that the vehicle may have remained at Ford for some time and when released during the A1 production it retained it's own serial but was given the current date for a DOD.

Posted: **Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:01 pm**

Thanks Wes, I appreciate the information, and you helping out whether it is American or Canadian stuff.

I am curious if anyone knows where one can see the research document that Peter did, I would really be interested in seeing that document. Does anyone know where one can find it.

Posted: **Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:11 am**

I would guess either you will need to visit with the author of the report that included Peter's research at Ford of Canada, Robert Grieve, or try to locate Peter Simundson who was a Ford employee. Since the report was done before 1996 you may have a difficult time locating either person.

Steve Johnson contacted Ford of Canada historians in 2004. Here's exerpts of his communications:

Steve and Jennifer Johnson <jssjohnson@shaw.ca> wrote:
Hello Wes
Here are some Photos of that 1953 M38A1 RCAF jeep I recovered this summer. There are some shots of the transport home and getting it parked for winter storage. You will notice the cut-out back panel. I have learned that this was a Canadian Airforce mod and a quick remove panel was put there to allow for easy access to the back for ropes and jacks etc. as the truck was used as a crash tender. The yellow colour is apparently correct RCAF also for some later period. From what I understand at some point they painted the CDN airforce trucks (High Visibility Yellow) Though I much prefer the original blue.
On another note. You know that discussion we were having online with regard to the script on the front of the M38 Toolbox and that it seems like the CDN ones do not have it.
I contacted the Heritage division of Ford of Canada and here is how they responded. Let me know what you think.
Hi Steve:
Part of the agreement with Willy's was that after production ceased, all records relating to the production (1952 & 1953) of the M-38 & M-38A Jeeps be turned over to the Canadian Military as classified material. What happened to the records after that is anyone's guess, as I have tried through the DND to access any records. We have only the serial number sequences for the units. Under license indicates that Ford was authorised to produce the vehicles here under the Willy's name (but with Ford of Canada on the data plate). As far as I know all the parts were produced here, not imported from Willy's, which was busy producing jeeps for the US Army at the time (the Korean War was taking place at the time). Of course, Willys provided all the design specifications for the jeeps.
Sandy Notarianni
Historical Consultant, Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited
CHQ 624A
(905) 845-2511 Ext. 1562 FAX: (905) 844-1198
snotaria@ford.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve and Jennifer Johnson [mailto:jssjohnson@shaw.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 12:28 AM
To: Notarianni, Sandy (S.M.)
Subject: 1952 Canadian M38 Jeeps built by Ford of Canada

Hello Sandy
I am restoring a 1952 M38CDN 1/4 ton truck (Jeep). On your heritage site is the following info.
Even after the war, Ford of Canada filled a large order of military Jeeps. Production took place in late 1951 through 1955. Built under license from Willys, they were known as M-38 Ford trucks. During 1952, a total of 2438 were made.
What does built under license mean?
Were the 1952CDN Jeeps just assembled from parts sent from Willys or did Ford of Canada fabricate the Jeeps or any of their parts to Willys Specifications under the license agreement.
Best Regards
Steve Johnon