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M38 Body reinforcement panels
Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:27 am
by BCA
TB 9-2855-4, dated 27 Oct. 1952, dealing with the installation of the M38 hard-top, shows the 3-5/8" x 8" reinforcing panels at the rear upper corners of the body. It says they are required for necessary strength when using a hard-top. However MWO ORD G740-W6 dealing with these reinforcements didn't come out until 14 May 1953. Were the reinforcement panels ever installed at the factory on American M38's or was it always a field modification? 1952 Canadian M38's all seem the have the plates installed with factory-looking welding. ....... Brian
Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:22 am
by wesk
Brian,
This has been discussed in the past. The TB for the top is dated Oct 52 but the M38 US production ended Jun 52. You would need Ford of Canada's records for determining their bit in these patches. Perhaps Keith has run across a Willys BOM or drawing that mentions this re-inforcement.
Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:46 pm
by BCA
Thanks Wes,
I'll keep digging but there seems to be almost no surviving Ford Motor Co. of Canada records dealing with the M38 CDN.
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:43 am
by Xamon
technically there should be no records, the Canadian army requested all the documents when production was finished and destroyed everything related to the vehicles when they surplused them.
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:51 am
by Bill_F
The funny thing is my USAF m38 had a hardtop on it, so it was an army only thing maybe???
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:14 am
by wesk
The Air Force and Army shared the tech data on the M series trucks. For example the M38 Operators and Maintenance manual is numbered for both the Army (TM 9-8012) and the Air Force (Technical order number 36A5-2-41)
Trouble with the USAF documents is they did not release anything public like the Army did with their TM's TB's and MWO's. In all likelihood the USAF issued a TCTO (Time Compliance Technical Order), their version of TB's and MWO's that would have covered the same topic.
Also with 50 year old surplus jeeps there's no way to determined when an Arctic top was installed on the jeep military or civilian installations.
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:15 pm
by Bill_F
I am pretty sure it had the hard top during its service with the USAF as it was the correct top and had blue paint on it, under the civvy white paint.
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:36 pm
by wesk
Maybe the AF Base it came from used it on paved roads only and the motor pool boss figured the reinforcements weren't needed. Like all the history on the majority of these half century old jeeps is guesswork.
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:25 am
by BCA
Xamon, That is a bold statement about the destruction of records. Any concrete evidence that this was policy? I have heard people mention that Ford of Canada archivists have made this claim but maybe it was just an off-the-cuff remark to satisfy collector enquiries. The only hard evidence from Ford that I have seen is a 1952 Month-End Serial Number Report. However observation of actual data plates shows that stamped dates of delivery can drag on well past the month-end reports. For example the Report for November 1952 Month-End: "F-102135 - End of M-38-11/27/52" but there are several examples of M38 CDN's with "Delivered Dates" on the serial plate being well after Nov. 27, 1952. Both the serial number and the delivered date are neatly machine-stamped with the same type-face. Still a lot to learn - the info is out there somewhere. ... Brian
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:35 am
by wesk
They weren't destroyed or at least no one declared them destroyed. Ford of Canada rep did post this in a written reply to one inquirey.
Hi Steve:
Part of the agreement with Willy's was that after production ceased, all records relating to the production (1952 & 1953) of the M-38 & M-38A Jeeps be turned over to the Canadian Military as classified material. What happened to the records after that is anyone's guess, as I have tried through the DND to access any records. We have only the serial number sequences for the units. Under license indicates that Ford was authorised to produce the vehicles here under the Willy's name (but with Ford of Canada on the data plate). As far as I know all the parts were produced here, not imported from Willy's, which was busy producing jeeps for the US Army at the time (the Korean War was taking place at the time). Of course, Willys provided all the design specifications for the jeeps.
Sandy Notarianni
Historical Consultant, Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited
CHQ 624A
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:10 pm
by Xamon
I have e-mailed with ford and they a very firm that all records were turned over to the military, I have also corresponded with the military and they are very firm that all documents relating to the m38 vehicles have been destroyed by them.
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:49 pm
by wesk
Well then I produced the written message that they were turned over to the military. So who can produce the written letter copy from the Canadian military confirming they were destroyed?
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:13 am
by Xamon
unfortunately I didn't keep a copy, I had heard it was the case when I wrote to them so wasn't surprised by the response and felt no need to keep it.
anyone may contact them though.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/contact.page