Civilian rims

GregS · Post by **GregS** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:41 pm

Are these not civilian rims?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Willys-J ... 7932QQrdZ1

Post by **wesk** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:59 pm

Probably military. There were three Willys wheels with the 1/8" holes.

Two had a 3/8" center offset, 16x4.5 with a pair of safety beads near the flanges of the wheels to help retain the tire's bead when running lower pressures. The center disc of one of these two was a single basic contour from it's high point to the rim. The later one of these two added a small flattish step area at the rim edge.

The third wheel was the truck wheel without safety beads and offset but was a 16x5.0 wheel.

GregS · Post by **GregS** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:18 am

So Wes,

Not all rims with the step on the outside edge of the inner disc are civilian?

I was reading the rim identification article and was confused thinking rims with this step were civilian.

Greg

Post by **wesk** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:47 am

The late CJ wheels had the step. The key to the wheels you posted is to have the seller dismount the tires and measure the rim width and confirm the safety beads.

With or without the step a wheel that has the 1/8" hole, safety beads and is 16x4.5 is military.

If you read Keith Buckly's post some time back about the M38/M38A1 wheels from factory data there were at least 2 suppliers, and several versions culminating in the 60's with the release of the civvy, non-safety beaded CJ wheel as a military spares factory replacement. Also keep in mind it was common for subtle changes in design or appearance to occur with parts used by Willys yet there was no change to the part number.

M38 Wheel and Paint Data By Keith Buckley

801762 was released for production on 5/5/50 as Rim & Disc Assy (16x4.50 Steel Wheel) for Model MC.

It was later released as 802113 for MC-AF, and 929499 for MD and MDA

The "Contour of Rim & Lock Bead" was changed "to agree with latest vendor dwg" on 6/30/50

Kelsey Hayes was the first vendor of record, with Motor wheel added later (between 7/21/52 and 11/21/52). The Motor Wheel version has the bulge at each lug hole.

BOTH came with EITHER riveted or welded construction.
The rivets themselves carried KH21652 or MW31535.
The rim itself was KH33704 or MW50713
The disc was KH28903 or MW33607

The Rim and Disc ASSEMBLY was KH33702 (DX23051 was the experimental designation) or MW33606.

The rim offset was not Zero, but positive 3/8" which means the disc is towards the outside flange. Since the 4.5 inch width is the bead width. not the overall width, if you lay the wheel on the floor, it will measure 5.54 tall +/- 1/16".

If you lay a straight edge across the back flange, it will be 3.25 +.02/-.04 depending on warpage and runout.

I have seen the single hole repeatedly referenced on the gee, but there is no mention of it on any of the specs I have researched.

The Kelsey Hayes wheels will have 16x4.50 "E" Kelsey-Hayes, Made in U.S.A., and the month day and year Mfd, along with the Tire and Rim Association Mark in a 'convenient' place near the valve hole.

The finish for 801762 was

Primer:
Federal Spec TT-P-636 or optional Federal Spec TTE-485B Double Dip

Enamel:
Military Spec MIL-E-11857, Color Spec TT-E-595, NO.2430 or optional No.2430 applied after final chassis assembly.

finish for 801762 was later changed to "paint per instruction dwg 957085-B" on 9/22/61.

802113 was the same wheel, only painted to TTE-489, STRATA BLUE GLOSS ENAMEL. .75 to 1.25 mils thick.

What was the question again?

Incidentally, Motor Wheel was a wholly owned subsidiary of the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company until 1987.
_________________
Oldjeeps

Quote:
Enamel:
Military Spec MIL-E-11857, Color Spec TT-E-595, NO.2430 or optional No.2430 applied after final chassis assembly.

finish for 801762 was later changed to "paint per instruction dwg 957085-B" on 9/22/61.

Paint can tag: Wyandotte Paint Products, Wyandotte MI

Code: 7BLK7710

Name: O.D. Semi Gloss

Color: 2430

Batch 49187

Material: TT-E-529

Date: 8-4-60

I can't speak for the Combat wheels. Every archive I've been to the info was missing. Might have been the old "confidential war item" category. All our tire mold and bulletproof tube dwgs are that way.

I tried to scan the 2430, but it came out black. 2430 is lighter than 24087.

There is no difference between x-24087 and 24087, and there is and was only ONE shade of 24087. I suspect you were comparing the lighter 2430 to the darker 24087.

If the wheels you were looking at were manufactured after 3/1/62, I suspect they were 640800 wheels. They look the same, but have no safety hump and have a 3/4 inch offset instead of 3/8.

GregS · Post by **GregS** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:25 am

Great, thanks.

So it is a combination of the features which determine if it is military or not, most importantly the width and safety bead.

Post by **wesk** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:11 am

It will have to have the 1/8" hole to ID it as a production military Willys wheel from 1950 through 1962. From 62 thru 1970 we have no solid evidence what wheel accompanied all those USMC and other special M38A1 contracts from the factory but I would say at least they came with 16x4.5 with safety beads from 62 to 70.

Post by **Ryan_Miller** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:10 am

Like Wes said, the tire needs to be dismounted so that the identification stampings on the inner surface can be read to properly determine the rim.

All the wheels I have seen with the step ( or flat ring) around the outer edge of the center disc ( the center part that has the holes where the wheel studs mount to the rim)(as apposed to the outer rim the tire actually mounts to), have been dated in the 1962 or later.

Summay: From what I have seen, the wheels with the step in the outer part of the center disc (that have the 1/8" hole and the saftey bead) have been dated 1962.

But then, I don't know everything